BuzzerBeater Forums

BB Global (English) > Tanking

Tanking

Set priority
Show messages by
This Post:
00
218937.423 in reply to 218937.421
Date: 7/3/2012 4:59:26 PM
Overall Posts Rated:
699699
So we are back to a previous point.

Many teams tank because they have blown up financially.
Old roster, no cash = TANK.

From: tough

To: SM
This Post:
00
218937.424 in reply to 218937.422
Date: 7/3/2012 5:08:04 PM
Mountain Eagles
III.1
Overall Posts Rated:
864864
Second Team:
Ric Flair Drippers
Yeah sure, but tanking leads to teams quiting. Teams not buying supporter. And teams getting filthy rich and splurge around, get players and in 2 seasons' time they're on their way to back-to-back championship. We don't like that. There's been hundreds of post here to show it. And I hate tanking.

3 Time NBBA Champion. Certified Trainer. Mentor. Have any questions? Feel free to shoot me a BB-Mail!
From: Tangosz

This Post:
22
218937.425 in reply to 218937.424
Date: 7/3/2012 6:34:52 PM
Overall Posts Rated:
573573
... get players and in 2 seasons' time they're on their way to back-to-back championship. We don't like that. There's been hundreds of post here to show it. And I hate tanking.


This is what I really want objective evidence of. How many teams who tank (meeting whatever definition would garner any proposed penalty) actually go on to substantially improve their team to the point of dominating multiple levels of competition? It's an honest question, and I really don't know the answer to it. My gut tells me that this isn't quite as common as it's generally accepted. But my gut, glorious as it may be, isn't objective evidence either. But it's clearly true that whether or not tanking actually leads to better results down the road, the perception definitely is such that tanking does so.

And like SM said, I agree that tanking should be a possible strategy, one that can be good in the long run for a team to pursue. Now, I don't want it to lead to teams that are overwhelmingly powerful. But if the difficult and boring time spent tanking yields an overall benefit that makes a middle of the road team stronger, then I have to give some credit to the manager who spent the time and dedication on that strategy.

Overall though I do agree that having multiple teams tank in the same league makes for kinda a boring season. Once it's clear that there's a tanking team in your division, then there's a big incentive to tank yourself, just to a lesser degree than the other team. That race to the bottom seems to lead to a big disparity in the top teams in the league who are aiming for promotion, and the tanking teams. A bit more competition throughout would be welcome I think.

I tend to favor some combination of various remedies discussed here:

-a slight increase in the player salary floor. I'd leave it at 60% of TV money in D5, but the rest I would increase one step (i.e.m D3/4 would be at 100% of salary floor, D2 is 120% of TV contract, and D1 is 140%).

-an increased penalty for multiple forfeits. I'd say that the 4rd forfeit gets you the same penalty as relegation does, and lasts the remainder of the season

-an increased penalty for suffering multiple blowout losses. I think the 4th loss of 40 points or more gets you the relegation penalty for the rest of the season.

I suspect that in response to changes like these, the perception that tanking is beneficial would be reduced. Teams who tank in order to train young players could still do it, and try and come back stronger on home grown talent. The other teams who tank for purely financial reasons would at least try to do enough to avoid the penalties, and thus field better, more competitive teams on average. Teams could still 'throw' a few league games to continue competing in the Cup.

I think crucial in a system like this, or any system that will penalize tanking, is that the negative aspects are made abundantly clear to all managers. So, in the 'adaptive' system like my earning the relegation penalty for a certain number of forfeits/blowouts, the manager needs to be alerted to how many forfeits they've made, and how many more they have before the penalty starts. If it's a more opaque system, such as the "4th place really is better than 5th place" scenario we currently have, it will fail. It won't adequately change managers' behavior.



This Post:
00
218937.426 in reply to 218937.425
Date: 7/3/2012 6:42:39 PM
Overall Posts Rated:
926926
Objective evidence:

Season 17 - Flash Mashers lost the relegation series and were relgated from league USA III.1
Season 18 - Flash Mashers were crowned champions of league USA IV.22
Season 19 - Flash Mashers made the playoffs of USA III.1 (I was top seed in the whole league but got shot down by late season injuies)

It's very possible to do it at the D2/D3 level where it is still beneficial.























This Post:
00
218937.427 in reply to 218937.426
Date: 7/3/2012 6:59:00 PM
Overall Posts Rated:
573573
Fair enough, that's n=1. Though you didn't win and promote, and you're doing well, but not running roughshod over your league this season. So you're stronger. Are you too strong? I dunno.

Still, I do recall at one point that the BBs looked to check if their relegation penalty was "working as intended". Meaning, it made it difficult for teams to drop down and then promote right back up. Not impossible, cause that would be incredibly demoralizing as a team that relegated despite their best effort. But in general, they said that it wasn't overly common for relegating teams to promote right back up. Now, whether that is still the case, I don't know.

From: tough

To: Coco
This Post:
00
218937.429 in reply to 218937.428
Date: 7/4/2012 3:42:31 AM
Mountain Eagles
III.1
Overall Posts Rated:
864864
Second Team:
Ric Flair Drippers
a hour later.....


what happened to my BB account?

3 Time NBBA Champion. Certified Trainer. Mentor. Have any questions? Feel free to shoot me a BB-Mail!
From: Koperboy

To: Coco
This Post:
33
218937.430 in reply to 218937.428
Date: 7/4/2012 3:50:05 AM
Overall Posts Rated:
952952
More and more new teams are coming through the ranks with interesting ideas.


Agree. It's the same in our country. For seasons there were only two teams who battled for championship and none other came close. Now one of the two teams didn't even made the finals, while other lost the interest since it couldn't compete anymore and got relegated to D.II.

I guess they had a lot of money piled up because they started much earlier than others; and I guess they didn't got involved in training or general improvements of their team enough because they thought they were safe. Eventually, the best teams caught up with them and surpassed them two seasons ago.

Last edited by Koperboy at 7/4/2012 3:50:59 AM

From: Kukoc

This Post:
00
218937.431 in reply to 218937.430
Date: 7/4/2012 4:40:05 AM
Overall Posts Rated:
13361336
+1 to you and Coco.

This Post:
55
218937.432 in reply to 218937.431
Date: 7/4/2012 7:46:09 AM
Overall Posts Rated:
485485
as a tanker, let me say my own motivation was to build a team from scratch that fit completely with my understanding of the game -- an honorable motive, if i may say. (i was trapped in DII, and saw no reasonable way to advance, but only a path towards eventual relegation. i was barely competitive, with older players, small arena, and no training program. i had done all i could to win DIII, and when i advanced, i saw i had not sufficiently planned for the next level.)

that was some three-four seasons ago. my plan is well underway, and while i will not claim to have watched it unfold flawlessly, i do see a team emerging that fits my ideas and my stadium will eventually produce much greater revenues -- in other words, my rebuild is succeeding.

but i hated, absolutely hated not fielding a competitive team my last season in DII, in part because i think we all enjoy the competition, but it was a necessary step. i did take a severe hit to my attendance that season and the next -- all told, revenues for a home game dropped 50% -- but i was always careful to at least field a team.

with that as background, i would suggest a simple change, and let the coaches deal with it: no penalty for tanking, just a very severe penalty (in attendance and tv revenues) for not fielding a full team for any game.

This Post:
00
218937.433 in reply to 218937.432
Date: 7/4/2012 9:37:34 AM
Overall Posts Rated:
926926
Exactly! +1

Advertisement