BuzzerBeater Forums

Moreover, I've read that the high market is a bad thing for new teams. Again I don't agree. An old team like me was able to stay season after season on top because it was easy for a winning team to renew his roster without losing in competitivity. In many countries you saw the same team champion again and again. Now the market is high, it's impossible, even the old and well-managed teams have to tank some seasons to rebuild a good roster (except in the micronations of course). The consequence is that we see (and we will see) more different champions.

Different champions maybe but all champions are from older teams. With high market, it tooks longer for a newbee to build a team to be champion, it's a fact. For a newbee point of view, inflation in the market is exactly like a rise in the cost of the stadium.

I said that training was slowed down, around S18ish (fact).

Link?

Can you prove me wrong?

I already did. NTs ratings (use bbstats) are down and B3 ratings in the KO phase were down before they streamlined enthusiasm. It's unfortunate that Buzzer-manager doesn't track the average payroll from previous seasons, but I guarantee you that salaries in D1 are down 15%-20% and only a very few percentage points are due to the senseless policy of reducing salary every season, however you can get the feeling yourself.

Rating is pointless to judge both a single match and the trend in the game. (opinion) Now either there is a possibility to simulate a match between a whatever team of 10 season ago with a current one of the same level or we'll never go out of the opinion field (fact).

Meh, I wonder if I really need to explain that ratings reflect the skills of the players. This is a fact. Lower skill and lower GS result in lower ratings. You may be able to win a game with lower TSP on the floor, of course, but the ratings will be worse too. So yeah the ratings reflect some key skills at each position and they have been declining.

Calling ~350k salary vs ~600k win "me vs tanker"... (your deadly wrong opinion)

Ok, I'll bite. Link?

I think it's doable (opinion), though I don't see the point.

The point would be to prove your misguided opinion, stated once again, that it's doable. At least Joemaverick, a manager with more accolades that you or me, has the common sense to admit che è impossibile.

As many times stated by BBs, by design the point of the game is to mix training and market (fact).

Sure but someone failed to realise that either there cannot be enough trained players for everyone or teams will never be as good (on average) as 10 seasons ago.

They still haven't reached a complete balance, but we are fluctuating around the balance point (opinion).

Until someone proves that you can win a promotion to D1 in a medium to large nation without resorting to the market it means that someone in this game will train for those who do. So there are users who by the way the system is designed must have untrained players, scrubs etc. You are relying on these people to train players for other users like you and me (well more you than me) who are sitting in D1. It's like a Ponzi scheme which was supported by 2 things:
1) People having farm teams (this is cheating) which were used to train the players, mostly for the NTs, their main team could not produce
2) Numbers falling combined with free agency which was taking trained players in teams going bot (including the aforementioned farms) and putting them on the market
Now both things don't happen anymore, not on the same scale they used to, and ooops player quality is dropping, prices are rising etc etc

The balance point you talk about is D1 teams playing with what would have been a D2 teams in season 25. This is the equilibrium point, which you should acknowledge looking at the state of your own league, where it's highly likely salaries went down like everywhere else.


Last edited by Lemonshine at 12/20/2016 11:31:46 AM

See first reply. Maybe it's already 10 seasons since the prices started to go up, but it's not 10 seasons since the % of managers who train players started to go up. Maybe managers only realized now that training is the best way to improve his team when the market is high.

That's your opinion, but seeing as you said that the majority was not training any player even back then I don't think it's a very valid opinion.

Some of the staff (GMs) when prices went up said that people had to wait for Utopia trained players to come through. So, where are those players after 10 seasons? Oh yeah, they forgot that each Utopia team could only train 3 maybe 6 players (if they were low potential), so Utopia trained players were never going to affect prices (downwards) in any meaningful way.

You say very few managers trained in the past, yet players were better. You say Darkonza is special in some way specifically because he doesn't train and that's why he may never need to rebuild while he stays at the top of one of the hardest league in BB (a puzzling opinion considering the rest you've said).

Let me ask you this: when do you think 'enough' people will be training? Are enough people training today? And what is enough? 80%x3 players at all times, 90%, 100%?

Now the market is high, and that everybody is aware of it, the % of managers who trains will increase a lot. And I predict that in 10 seasons, without changing the training, there will be too many players on the TL.

I disagree. You have to start giving numbers and show us examples, because this is just mind-blowing. Even if you were able to prove that the majority of users don't train, then it would not change the fact that even if 100% of users trained at full speed 3 players we would still be short players of the average quality we became used to, which has been my point all along, my 'obsession' as you described it.

It's your opinion, not a fact. I gave you another reason which explains the current situation but you don't accept it. I agree that without the free agency the number of players has decreased, but they were bad players. The good ones are still free agent. My opinion is that my explanation of the current high market is better than yours.

Yes it is my opinion and I provided an extremely logical explanation for it. I'm saying that even if every single user in the game was training it wouldn't be enough. What is you explanation for the high market again? If the number of 'good players' (remember that you complained you couldn't find guards with your not-so-strict criteria in other threads not too long ago) hasn't decreased why is their price going up with a shrinking user base?

You say I'm wrong but you don't prove anything. If I look at an european roster, I'm right, there's no competitive team (in Euroleague for example) made by only homegrown players. NBA doesn't work as BB.

Again, I proved you that the NBA sustains itself through the draft and free agency rules on undrafted players and since we also have a draft this is exactly the the same model except we have 18,000 teams and the NBA has 30. Euro teams have their own transfer rules about how to acquire new talent, but they have a way to keep the average level of the rosters stable. The average BB team must to raise 8-10 players by training, if they don't then we don't have enough players. This is the way we keep the level constant in this game unless there are contingent situations like an exodus+free agency, it's as simple as that.

Last edited by Lemonshine at 12/20/2016 12:22:36 PM

If you keep talking about ratings, there is no point of discussing further. Ratings don't show you the IS of guards or the OD of bigs etc etc, do you really want to continue with this?

Right, so primaries are decreasing are you happier this way? And who in his right mind would think that a player with worse primaries and similar secondaries would play in a B3 team or NT team? If you think this you need to point out all these Hakkinen-like players out there.

There is no evidence in neither direction, but of course you are right and I'm wrong. If I was registered in UK with only one division to beat, I'd do it right away. Once I saturate my current best I'll take the challenge.

Oh it's very simple. Do you know of any player at the moment with 156 TSP like Hakkinen? Do you know any guard in Italy with defense as good as Spaggiari had?
Also without speculating you could just go on the TL and check for >=115 TSP. 45 results who are 32yo or lower and 49 who are 33 or older (and many of these would have already dropped) does this look like a stable or worsening situation to you?

If I was registered in UK with only one division to beat, I'd do it right away. Once I saturate my current best I'll take the challenge.

Ah the usual big nation talk down. Look, it was 3 league levels and my lowest one had 13 human managers, which is more you'd have ever found in Italy D5 (I just checked and the majority in s18 in your league were bots or players regularly playing BO/Normal). So you had 4 credible levels of competition and we had 3, so? I have trained single position since I started playing this game and I've had fewer than 3 trainees probably 1 or 2 seasons between both my teams, I've been training my 150k C in OD in D1.

You are barking at the wrong tree, I'm pretty confident I trained more minutes per game (excluding 1v1) at any league level than you or Joemaverick (you just need to look at my games and look for the players who get 48 minutes). So I'm one of the tiny minority who, according to you guys, was training even when it was not convenient. Hell, I was even training 5 players in my first Utopia season when I went to the cup semifinal.

I am doing everything I could to create new players, probably more than you and Joemaverick, and I'm trying to explain to you that even if you and everyone else was like me it wouldn't make a difference.

Last edited by Lemonshine at 12/20/2016 1:00:19 PM