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They have to be separated because people say you should build as a priority, which is the predominant opinion being tossed around lately. So clearly we're comparing options...

Here you have:
a) the fellas saying you should build as a priority (and only focus on the cash you make per week, with no regard for the value of players or the advantages of being in higher leagues)
b) the fellas saying you should adopt a more balanced approach

Most of your fellow Americans fall under a), except Mike Franks who is clearly b). I'm for b) too, both because I think there can be more profitable ways to invest money than adding seats and because it's better for young teams in order to learn the game to put a bit more money in their team (instead of the arena) while remaining healthily profitable.

Last edited by Lemonshine at 9/12/2015 4:16:42 PM

I averaged $251K my final season in DIII, and $235K in my second to last season there.

yeah I had already changed the post, but I still doubt you can make more than 250k without promotion bonus. I welcome anyone who can show otherwise. Trainerman made 230k in one game this season in D3 with a 16.5k arena, but he does have the promotion bonus (and a winning record).

I make 189k despite my prices were set for an expansion and have a puny 10k arena (without promotion bonus). My 1 million+ investment in trainees however...

I agree.
I can't think of a season where I wasn't training anyone.

Are you saying you did something unprofitable or buying those trainees, staff and training them was the smarter choice compared to using that money to expand the arena even further?

Last edited by Lemonshine at 9/12/2015 4:16:20 PM

This is my last post in this thread because you are getting a little dickish.

Competitive leagues make it hard to field a B3 contender because its easier to accumulate cash in less competitive leagues. All of those bullet points are great because ignores the fact we are talking theoretical. It's nice that golden horde won with that arena but he could have fielded a better team and earned more money if he had a 20k arena. If you look at the top b3 teams most of them have 20k+ arenas. The only thing you sacrifice with arena building is the time/money it takes to build your arena while the benefits IMHO are worth it.

Actually means exactly that. 

So maximising your investment for you guys means spending every penny on the arena. 

No it doesn't. Priority doesn't mean 100% investment. That's your misconception, not mine.

Ihave a question for you people who can't think beyond the cash coming in every week: would you rather have a team worth 7-8 million more (i.e. by selling all players you will make 7-8 million more) or 6k extra seats (even if they weren't mostly bleachers)?

If a team worth 7-8 million will guarantee promotion, and I have enough seats to not spend my money trying to catch up to the arena sizes at the next level, I would go for the 7-8 million team.

Remove Poland then and insert Iran, Japan, Moldova, Slovakia. The point will still stand.

Italy also won, so I should probably replace them with France :D

I averaged $251K my final season in DIII, and $235K in my second to last season there.

yeah I had already changed the post, but I still doubt you can make more than 250k without promotion bonus. I welcome anyone who can show otherwise. Trainerman made 230k in one game this season in D3 with a 16.5k arena, but he does have the promotion bonus (and a winning record).

That was the season before I promoted to DII, so there was no promotion bonus.
Actually, when I promoted, my arena was much smaller, so I was only bringing in about $175K/game.
It is very possible to average over $250K/game in DIII without promotion bonus.
I know this because I did.

No it doesn't. Priority doesn't mean 100% investment. That's your misconception, not mine.

Not really. I'm saying that investing in players may be more profitable than investing in the arena and therefore be the better choice. In the end if you have to suggest someone who just started and can only do one or the other will you suggest to build some more seats or live with less income while he trains?

If a team worth 7-8 million will guarantee promotion, and I have enough seats to not spend my money trying to catch up to the arena sizes at the next level, I would go for the 7-8 million team.

I didn't choose the number randomly. With a 7 million investment you can build a better 20k arena than most 20k arenas...so if your trainees and players are worth 8 millions on the market you can turn them into a 1 million roster and 15k seats.

I agree.
I can't think of a season where I wasn't training anyone.

Are you saying you did something unprofitable or buying those trainees, staff and training them was the smarter choice compared to using that money to expand the arena even further?

Not sure I'm saying anything definitive either way. I've always enjoyed training, and honing my players to have the skills I'm looking for to best suit my team. I go a bit long on players, as in I like to keep them for most of their career. I could probably have made more money in the past by trading more often, but I like the way I have managed it thus far.
Anyhow, to attempt to sort of answer your question, it is possible that my training of players led to some losses that then led to me not making as much in revenue in the following games, but it is certain that the training of my players has led to wins later down the road after they've improved, and saved me money along the way since I didn't have to buy a specific player build, so I could instead focus money I would spend on acquiring players on my arena, trainer, and increasing player salaries each year.

This is my last post in this thread because you are getting a little dickish.

Well I didn't start the dickish comparison between countries (without even checking my facts I might add), did I? You tried to demean my points by saying that they are based on me being somewhat part of a "lesser" or "easier" BB nation, instead of reasoning it out.

It's nice that golden horde won with that arena but he could have fielded a better team and earned more money if he had a 20k arena.

I clearly said it out several times that you can certainly make even more money with a larger arena, but it's not a requirement for winning. You however said that "if you want to build the most competitive DI team possible you need at least a 20k arena". How much more competitive did Golden Horde need to be in order to win the NBBA? In Utopia even now it's not the 20k teams who are leading the pack in Utopia Heaven.

The only thing you sacrifice with arena building is the time/money it takes to build your arena while the benefits IMHO are worth it.

There you go. Just ignore everything I've been saying. If you spend millions on arena rather than putting them into players (trainees or undervalued ones), you are choosing a way to invest your money. You can calculate how long it takes to make that money back. Usually 20 weeks or more, because as Iguanadon Joe pointed out to fill more seats you need lower prices so the net gain is actually quite small (unless you're selling out AND charging the maximum price).

I saw just now the point about my arena. Currently I have the third highest selling arena in the EBBL thanks to the promotion bonus and record. I had no direct comparison and therefore assumed that I would not sell out at $19. I got the LT price wrong otherwise maybe I would not sell out the bleachers either and besides the only sell out at $19 pricing came after a win on the road. I'm absolutely positive I would not sell out at $20 even with the wrong price on LT.

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If I ever get to mentor someone completely new I would suggest this:
1) Fire all the rubbish players you get at the start and keep only the ones you plan on keeping further . See you back in 4 weeks.
2) After 4 weeks, complete your roster. That is 6 cheap trainees and 6 starters. These starters would probably be around or less than 10k salary and with skills where it matters. You can do without starters and buy scrubs for less than 5k each if you're in a league full of bots. Lower numbered DIII (up to III.6, III.7) in England all had a high number of human managers. The league I started in had 13 human managers, 10 of whom were active. I wish I had started in a DV full of bots and young teams, instead of competing with, well yeah, multiple 20k+ arenas (there were 3 in my conference alone) from the get go.
2) Buy a competent or advanced trainer possibly with a specialty and a basic doctor with massage
3) Spend all the remaining money on the arena. With the new team bonus in the first 4 weeks you should have 5-600k and maybe more. (300k you start with+200k of extra money in the first 4 weeks+all the profits from having no salary floor and no payroll in the first 4 weeks)
4) try to win games while training, managing minutes and enthusiasm
5) train and after a season sell the trainees and get the replacement of the starters going (either younger with similar skills or same age but more skilled). Spend whatever left on arena, but anticipate expenses on better trainees, better staff and better players.
6) If you keep improving your team as under 5) you will promote at some point. You can stop swapping trainees when you have 2-3 solid superstar or better trainees who can be trained for 7-8 seasons. 2 of those guys will be the core of the team going forward. You can stop swapping starters when they are all under 32 and they can hold their own against your competition.

Last edited by Lemonshine at 9/12/2015 6:21:27 PM

Anyhow, to attempt to sort of answer your question, it is possible that my training of players led to some losses that then led to me not making as much in revenue in the following games, but it is certain that the training of my players has led to wins later down the road after they've improved, and saved me money along the way since I didn't have to buy a specific player build, so I could instead focus money I would spend on acquiring players on my arena, trainer, and increasing player salaries each year.

And I completely agree with this.