BuzzerBeater Forums

See first reply. Maybe it's already 10 seasons since the prices started to go up, but it's not 10 seasons since the % of managers who train players started to go up. Maybe managers only realized now that training is the best way to improve his team when the market is high.

That's your opinion, but seeing as you said that the majority was not training any player even back then I don't think it's a very valid opinion.

Some of the staff (GMs) when prices went up said that people had to wait for Utopia trained players to come through. So, where are those players after 10 seasons? Oh yeah, they forgot that each Utopia team could only train 3 maybe 6 players (if they were low potential), so Utopia trained players were never going to affect prices (downwards) in any meaningful way.

You say very few managers trained in the past, yet players were better. You say Darkonza is special in some way specifically because he doesn't train and that's why he may never need to rebuild while he stays at the top of one of the hardest league in BB (a puzzling opinion considering the rest you've said).

Let me ask you this: when do you think 'enough' people will be training? Are enough people training today? And what is enough? 80%x3 players at all times, 90%, 100%?

Now the market is high, and that everybody is aware of it, the % of managers who trains will increase a lot. And I predict that in 10 seasons, without changing the training, there will be too many players on the TL.

I disagree. You have to start giving numbers and show us examples, because this is just mind-blowing. Even if you were able to prove that the majority of users don't train, then it would not change the fact that even if 100% of users trained at full speed 3 players we would still be short players of the average quality we became used to, which has been my point all along, my 'obsession' as you described it.

It's your opinion, not a fact. I gave you another reason which explains the current situation but you don't accept it. I agree that without the free agency the number of players has decreased, but they were bad players. The good ones are still free agent. My opinion is that my explanation of the current high market is better than yours.

Yes it is my opinion and I provided an extremely logical explanation for it. I'm saying that even if every single user in the game was training it wouldn't be enough. What is you explanation for the high market again? If the number of 'good players' (remember that you complained you couldn't find guards with your not-so-strict criteria in other threads not too long ago) hasn't decreased why is their price going up with a shrinking user base?

You say I'm wrong but you don't prove anything. If I look at an european roster, I'm right, there's no competitive team (in Euroleague for example) made by only homegrown players. NBA doesn't work as BB.

Again, I proved you that the NBA sustains itself through the draft and free agency rules on undrafted players and since we also have a draft this is exactly the the same model except we have 18,000 teams and the NBA has 30. Euro teams have their own transfer rules about how to acquire new talent, but they have a way to keep the average level of the rosters stable. The average BB team must to raise 8-10 players by training, if they don't then we don't have enough players. This is the way we keep the level constant in this game unless there are contingent situations like an exodus+free agency, it's as simple as that.

Last edited by Lemonshine at 12/20/2016 12:22:36 PM

If you keep talking about ratings, there is no point of discussing further. Ratings don't show you the IS of guards or the OD of bigs etc etc, do you really want to continue with this?

Right, so primaries are decreasing are you happier this way? And who in his right mind would think that a player with worse primaries and similar secondaries would play in a B3 team or NT team? If you think this you need to point out all these Hakkinen-like players out there.

There is no evidence in neither direction, but of course you are right and I'm wrong. If I was registered in UK with only one division to beat, I'd do it right away. Once I saturate my current best I'll take the challenge.

Oh it's very simple. Do you know of any player at the moment with 156 TSP like Hakkinen? Do you know any guard in Italy with defense as good as Spaggiari had?
Also without speculating you could just go on the TL and check for >=115 TSP. 45 results who are 32yo or lower and 49 who are 33 or older (and many of these would have already dropped) does this look like a stable or worsening situation to you?

If I was registered in UK with only one division to beat, I'd do it right away. Once I saturate my current best I'll take the challenge.

Ah the usual big nation talk down. Look, it was 3 league levels and my lowest one had 13 human managers, which is more you'd have ever found in Italy D5 (I just checked and the majority in s18 in your league were bots or players regularly playing BO/Normal). So you had 4 credible levels of competition and we had 3, so? I have trained single position since I started playing this game and I've had fewer than 3 trainees probably 1 or 2 seasons between both my teams, I've been training my 150k C in OD in D1.

You are barking at the wrong tree, I'm pretty confident I trained more minutes per game (excluding 1v1) at any league level than you or Joemaverick (you just need to look at my games and look for the players who get 48 minutes). So I'm one of the tiny minority who, according to you guys, was training even when it was not convenient. Hell, I was even training 5 players in my first Utopia season when I went to the cup semifinal.

I am doing everything I could to create new players, probably more than you and Joemaverick, and I'm trying to explain to you that even if you and everyone else was like me it wouldn't make a difference.

Last edited by Lemonshine at 12/20/2016 1:00:19 PM

that you'd probably never play since his primaries are not like Turbato

ah the assumptions. My big man is better than the several of German NT players who are the ones I would benchmark him to. If you know a little how the Nachtmahr's followers train and what kind of big men Germany has, you should know what I mean.

In UK at best an half human Div III. Just wait and see.

Bless the ignorance once again. I complained on forums several times and open suggestions as well about this several times when I was scouting drafts for the NT and U21: for some reason there were D3 with 15 human managers and others with 3. I would say it could happen in Italy in some of the 256 DV leagues, but you have 341*16=5,456 spots (DV alone has 4,096) in Italy with barely 1,600 managers anyone can do the math and unless you were close to 4,000 it's very unlikely that your league was full of human managers as you claim. Especially considering that NINE teams, 4 in your conference and 5 in the other, were playing BO in all games I checked. Also, if you start in a midsize nation of the guys you start with very few are new users, some of them have 20k arenas and have played since the single digit seasons.

Making the game simpler is not the way to go IMO.

Who's asking to make it simpler? Where did I ask that? Good luck finding a quote.

Last edited by Lemonshine at 12/20/2016 3:02:52 PM

how can you expect to see a lot of great MVP+ from Utopia on the TL now?

If you followed my reasoning you'd probably guessed that I never expected that at all. Other people suggested that Utopia trained players would sort the market.

Because before the market was low, it was high, even higher than now (were you already here?).

No I wasn't but I see players listed at 17 million with the expectations of selling, players sub 120 (our NT guard) going at 7.5, a guy spending 24 million on 2 players with a 25 million cap (which was not there in the past).

But you fail to explain the cause (the fact that the level of ther players on TL has decreased) because you explain it by only one reason.

You can spin it how you want but the fact remains that the current economy is driven by a mismatch by demand and offer in the Transfer List. Yes, they tried to affect demand by making it harder to save money and yes it has resulted in people cutting salary, but they did not to prevent a 1 million roster in the B3: they did it because they realise the Economy overshoot and people complained it was unplayable, so they reacted (wrongly) trying to limit the cash people make so that people would not be able to afford high prices. The solution failed spectacularly and now they have doubled down on it increasing the salary floor even more, which tells me they haven't learned from what happened in the last couple of years. In the end all these measures they take to affect the economy they are all taken with the view of fixing the market, because they don't want to accept that there are 2 sides to it: the demand and the supply and that for the supply of players only cosmetic changes have been implemented (which this thread is about).

How can I measure the number of trainers? Are you crazy to ask that?

You can't, but you guys keep saying that people don't train so the argument works for you as much as it does for me. Anecdotal evidence (my scouting of opponents back in the day) tells me most people did train even 10-15 seasons ago, yours clearly suggests something else. I reject your opinion because I believe that the transfer list deteriorating is a clear sign that training has not got more popular at all compared to back then and therefore either too few people train today or many more people trained back then than previously thought.

By the way I don't see where is the problem to have a lower level in the top teams, because that means there's a leveling and that's good for younger teams. You create problems where there's no problem.

And that's fine, as long as we understand what we're putting the managers through and we accept there may be no game because of this, if frustrated managers begin leaving again. These are the people who stuck with the game during its worst days (user loss and price spike)

I gave you a ball