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From: yodabig

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212354.488 in reply to 212354.487
Date: 9/29/2012 3:05:31 AM
Overall Posts Rated:
14651465
Death penalty is a very bad thing, it is the one thing you can't take back and makes us now better than the criminals. Modern DNA testing has shown that something like 10% of prisoners put to death in the USA were innocent and many of them actually confessed to the crimes they committed. Our penalties are a joke but don't overreact and make them worse, lock them up for life, make them dig holes and break rocks, but supporting the death penalty even for the worst of the worst is a very backwards move and I am very proud to live in a nation where we do not have it.

This Post:
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212354.489 in reply to 212354.488
Date: 9/29/2012 3:27:23 AM
Koopasaurus
II.4
Overall Posts Rated:
300300
That is true... the death penalty should not be given to those where there is doubt.

But if the evidence is overwhelming and the guilty has admitted to it, then I don't see how you can let such monsters live.

e.g that Swedish case where some dude planned and premeditated the murder of 20-30 people on that island. He admitted it, the evidence was overwhelming and he was caught in the act. Why is he still alive? To prove that the western world is fair and just? But its okay to go to wars and murder and pillage.

Anyways I do no support capital punishment, just venting my anger. LOL

But I do Support the Swans and BB. hehehe

From: Leeroy

This Post:
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212354.490 in reply to 212354.488
Date: 9/29/2012 8:58:55 AM
Overall Posts Rated:
241241
Agree with this.

I don't think anyone should have the power to decide whether a person lives or dies.

From: akuma

This Post:
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212354.491 in reply to 212354.490
Date: 9/29/2012 9:34:48 AM
Overall Posts Rated:
179179
no one is making a decision on who lives or who dies except for the murderer.

If he lives in a society where rape/murder is punishable by death, then he has made a conscious decision to take the life of the person he murdered, as well as place his own at risk in the event that he is found guilty of that murder.

Saying that you don't support capital punishment because you can never be sure about a persons guilt/innocence doesnt mean theres a flaw with capital punishment - it means there is a flaw in how we convict criminals. A convicted criminal is supposed to be proven beyond reasonable doubt right? maybe for death penalties they can be proven beyond any doubt?

From: yodabig

This Post:
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212354.492 in reply to 212354.491
Date: 9/29/2012 10:39:32 AM
Overall Posts Rated:
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If he lives in a society where rape/murder is punishable by death, then he has made a conscious decision to take the life of the person he murdered, as well as place his own at risk in the event that he is found guilty of that murder.


Here comes the story of the Hurricane...

This Post:
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212354.493 in reply to 212354.488
Date: 9/29/2012 2:23:35 PM
Overall Posts Rated:
522522
I disagree completely. The death penalty is something that needs to be enforced for all murders and all rapes (excluding mere statutory rape).

We have an ever growing population. Why in the world should be wasting resources to keep criminals alive for life? The answer is, we shouldn't.

Pros of the death penalty:
Don't have to keep paying to keep them alive for the rest of their life.
No chance of them escaping and recommitting crime.
Arguably a way to deter some people from killing and raping.
No chance of them corrupting other people in jail who might have only assaulted someone or something.

Cons:
The state has the power to murder.
Sometimes innocent people are put on death row.

To address the cons:
I don't care if the state has the power to murder. I want them to have that power. They already have the power to put someone in jail for their entire life, and a life in jail is far worse than a painless death. By killing criminals we are being far more merciful than by keeping them in captivity for their remaining life.

And so what if some times an innocent person dies? Two words: collateral damage! No system is perfect, but at the end of the day if one innocent person dying means that the world is a better place overall, then that is an acceptable loss. Imagine the following situation: If you could kill a 7 year old girl, and this would instantly result in all cancer in the world being cured, would you do it? The answer, without any hesitation, should be a resounding YES! And regardless, with science advancing at an exponential rate, we have more evidence against people and therefore, as time goes on, it will become increasingly unlikely for an innocent person to be convicted.

One additional argument:
Life expectancy is constantly increasing. Soon it is predicted that we will be able to increase the human life span drastically. People will be able to live to 300 years old, and longer. Are we really going to keep murderers and rapists around for hundreds of years to serve out a life sentence? (Yes, a life sentence isn't actually "life", but as human life span increases, the definition of life sentence will change to match that). Keeping all murderers and rapists in containment simply isn't feasible. The death penalty is the solution.

Last edited by Naker Virus at 9/29/2012 2:24:20 PM

This Post:
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212354.494 in reply to 212354.493
Date: 9/29/2012 6:06:20 PM
Overall Posts Rated:
485485
dude I hope you are never the prosecution lawyer against me in a case :-P

This Post:
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212354.495 in reply to 212354.493
Date: 9/29/2012 6:50:22 PM
Overall Posts Rated:
14651465
As a wise utilitatian philisopher if I could kill a seven year old girl and cure cancer naturally I would do it.

Do I want governments that I already do not trust and have been shown to be corrupt to have the power of life and death over their people? No. How many examples do we need to see of governments fabricating crimes against those that oppose them, in enlightened countires those people live in others they are quickly executed for the "common good".

Collateral damage is ok? So you support the use of agent orange, napalm, the bombing of baby milk factories, the occasional village being wiped out because the troops are upset, maybe a bit of ethnic cleansing here and there.

More science? The science is already so complex that no-one on the jury can understand it. Every lawyer knows that for every expert arguing one interpretation of "the facts" they can find an opposing expert. There have been several such cases even here in Australia.

The problem with the current systems if incarceration is they are incredibly expensive. Science is indeed the answer. In the future science and technology should make the prison system far more automated and less expensive. I also think that prisoners should be forced to work and be productive members of society if they want societies benefits. If they are willing to sit in a bare cell and eat bread and water then they can do nothing. But if they want TV, nice meals, exercise equipment etc then like every other capable member of scoiety they need to do a decent day's work. Lifespan is irrelevant is they are cost neutral.

Penalties as a deterrant are a very debatable feature. Beyond a certain point do you think they really affect any criminals? Do you think any would be rapist thinks to himself, "if I rape this girl I will get 30 years in jail, that is ok"? They think they will get no penalty so the penalty does not matter. It is only by increacing the probability that they will be caught that perpertrators are put off. Really trivial penalties are also a problem, for example someone that has stolen 50+ cars getting a suspended sentence because they have ADHD, they need to be at a suitable level where any reasonable person will fear them.

Pros of the death penalty:
Don't have to keep paying to keep them alive for the rest of their life.

Make it cost neutral through science, technology and inmate production.

No chance of them escaping and recommitting crime.

Do you know how many people in Australia escape from maximum security prisons? None.

Arguably a way to deter some people from killing and raping.

No it isn't.

No chance of them corrupting other people in jail who might have only assaulted someone or something.

True but prisons already do that despite the fact that we already segregate the hard core from "softer" prisoners. What % of prisoners are you proposing executing? Anyone that may be a bad influence? As home detention methods get better for "soft" criminals this should improve.

Cons:
The state has the power to murder.

I barely trust the Australian government, and we have more problems with apathy and incompetence than rampant high levels of corruption, imagine living overseas.

Sometimes innocent people are put on death row.

And murdered. Innocent. Killed. And we approve.

Have you never heard that two wrongs don't make a right?

Rwanda. One of the worst genocides of all time. We need to punish the guilty right? What did the government do in some cases? Rounded up all suspected Hutu militia and put then in literal dungeons. So crowded they couldn't all lie down at the same time. Put on starvation rations. No toilet facilities so eventually people are ankle deep waste. No medical attentian. No sunlight. Disease rampant. Deaths by the hour. How do you get out? Confess to genocide. If you are innocent tough choice. What would you do?

Last edited by yodabig at 9/29/2012 7:02:03 PM

This Post:
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212354.496 in reply to 212354.493
Date: 9/29/2012 9:57:17 PM
Overall Posts Rated:
326326
I personally don't have a strong view on this matter.

But to impose the death penalty on someone would take years of court cases, etc, and the person has to be imprisoned while that is going on. I wonder just how much cheaper it would actually work out to be...

I don't think it would be much of a deterent either - as you say , most people would probably see life imprisonment as a worse sentence than the death penalty. If life imprisonment doesn't deter somone, the death penalty won't.

And I don't accept the collateral damage argument. I'm sure if it was you who was on death row for a crime you didn't commit, you would have a different view on the matter.

This Post:
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212354.497 in reply to 212354.494
Date: 9/30/2012 1:52:16 AM
Overall Posts Rated:
522522
dude I hope you are never the prosecution lawyer against me in a case :-P


haha well I hope you are never the murdering or raping defendant against me :P

This Post:
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212354.498 in reply to 212354.495
Date: 9/30/2012 2:48:10 AM
Overall Posts Rated:
522522
Do I want governments that I already do not trust and have been shown to be corrupt to have the power of life and death over their people? No. How many examples do we need to see of governments fabricating crimes against those that oppose them, in enlightened countires those people live in others they are quickly executed for the "common good".


Why don't you trust the Australian government?

Collateral damage is ok? So you support the use of agent orange, napalm, the bombing of baby milk factories, the occasional village being wiped out because the troops are upset, maybe a bit of ethnic cleansing here and there.


Collateral damage is okay provided the benefit outweighs the damage. For example, in the example I gave you regarding killing the 7 year old girl to cure cancer for everyone in the world, the benefit outweighs the life of one person and so the girl is collateral damage. (Yes, I realise collateral damage is generally used in a civilian vs military type situation, but I'm sure you can understand the application of the word here)

More science? The science is already so complex that no-one on the jury can understand it. Every lawyer knows that for every expert arguing one interpretation of "the facts" they can find an opposing expert. There have been several such cases even here in Australia.


More science isn't the same as complex science. And even if it is complex, that doesn't mean a jury can't understand the ramifications of the evidence despite not understanding how the science works. For example, most jury members don't realise exactly how DNA is matched, but they still accept DNA as strong evidence for convictions. Science gave us this ability. And in the future science will give us other abilities and technologies that can be used to ensure guilt. In relation to juries though, it is possible to have the trial without a jury if the defendant really wanted. They can simply have a judge-alone trial.

In 2008 Queensland introduced provisions into the Criminal Code allowing for a pre-trial
application for a ‘no jury’ order. Like New South Wales and Western Australia, the prosecution or defence can make an application and the court can make these orders if it is in the interests of justice, with the consent of the accused.

The Act provides examples of when these orders may be made, including if:
(a) The trial, because of its complexity or length or both, is likely to be unreasonably
burdensome to a jury; ...
(c) There has been significant pre-trial publicity that may affect jury deliberations.

The courts are guided by the Criminal Code s 615(5) which allows refusal of such an order if
the trial would necessitate contemplation of objective community standards.


Judge-alone trials are becoming more common in practice. Maybe one day there will be no jury.


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