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Playoff seeding tiebreakers

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From: CrazyEye

To: j9s3
This Post:
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166078.49 in reply to 166078.48
Date: 12/21/2010 3:59:15 AM
Overall Posts Rated:
959959
Any arguments for H2H? Yes.


for me head to head make less sense, it is a league system which is decided by the games against all teams. So why it should be more important how you play against team X just because you ended with the same wins? Is he better then you, just because his style of game is fit better to your team, even when he struggle with it against other teams?

And especially here when close games, end pretty curious through end game logic, which is maybe not so important over 22 games, because random functions get more close over more trys.

And in BB you also get the problem, that you don't play your best guys every time, so this comparision would be also a decided of the schedule in this week, instead of quality which should be pretty much the same-

Any arguments for strength of victory? Yes.


if a team better which could concentrate against the top teams, but play loose against bet teams? Or is an constant team better?
Maybe i understand the strength of competion, but strength of victorys no - a league system is decided by games against all teams.

Last edited by CrazyEye at 12/21/2010 4:00:52 AM

From: Monkeybiz

To: j9s3
This Post:
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166078.50 in reply to 166078.48
Date: 12/21/2010 4:02:03 AM
Overall Posts Rated:
237237
Do you have any arguments why total points scored decides the better team? No.


There have been plenty of arguments made above. You just chose to ignore them.

Any arguments for H2H? Yes.

No doubt there are

Any arguments for strength of victory? Yes.


That again is just a matter of your opinion. Both arguments are equally valid. Your inability to accept the other arguments or even acknowledge them just shows plain ignorance.

Last edited by Monkeybiz at 12/21/2010 4:02:37 AM

From: j9s3

This Post:
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166078.52 in reply to 166078.49
Date: 12/21/2010 3:16:52 PM
Overall Posts Rated:
5151



So why it should be more important how you play against team X just because you ended with the same wins? Is he better then you, just because his style of game is fit better to your team, even when he struggle with it against other teams?

You're forgetting the point. If "he struggle with it against other teams" then he probably will not be in the mix for playoffs. If he is, then the other tied team is just as equally "struggling." So, play two struggling teams against each other (remember: they are struggling almost equally - same record, same points differential) --> the better team should win. Logic: Team A plays Team B. Which team is more likely to win? The better or worse?
And I didn't say H2H is perfect, it is just better than total points.


if a team better which could concentrate against the top teams, but play loose against bet teams? Or is an constant team better?
Maybe i understand the strength of competion, but strength of victorys no - a league system is decided by games against all teams.

Strength of competition would work too. (It would basically be which conference is stronger)

From: CrazyEye

To: j9s3
This Post:
00
166078.53 in reply to 166078.52
Date: 12/21/2010 3:21:33 PM
Overall Posts Rated:
959959

You're forgetting the point. If "he struggle with it against other teams" then he probably will not be in the mix for playoffs. If he is, then the other tied team is just as equally "struggling." So, play two struggling teams against each other (remember: they are struggling almost equally - same record, same points differential) --> the better team should win. Logic: Team A plays Team B. Which team is more likely to win? The better or worse?


if team A is better then team b he would have better results in the league. You could also say the team who wins the head to head comparision, was weaker against the other teams so it is the weaker team.

From: j9s3

This Post:
11
166078.54 in reply to 166078.50
Date: 12/21/2010 3:27:21 PM
Overall Posts Rated:
5151
Do you have any arguments why total points scored decides the better team? No.


There have been plenty of arguments made above. You just chose to ignore them.

Really? Name one reason how a team that scores more points per game is better than a team that scores less points per game.



Any arguments for strength of victory? Yes.


That again is just a matter of your opinion. Both arguments are equally valid. Your inability to accept the other arguments or even acknowledge them just shows plain ignorance.

This is not an opinion. It is not arguable. It is a fact. You don't have to completely agree with an argument for it to be logical, as long as there is reason behind it. That being said, the argument itself is arguable/debatable, but the existence of an argument is not arguable.
There are several arguments for strength of victory: I will name one - Team A and Team B are tied in records and point differentials. Team A has beaten better teams that Team B. Therefore, Team A is probably stronger (and has a better chance of beating the same strong teams again in the playoffs.)
Again, you may not agree with this argument, but you cannot deny that there is some logic in it, and that it should theoretically work for over 50% of the time.
(In case you're not sure what strength of victory is: "If two teams end with identical records, combine the records of the opponents in each of the team's wins and calculate the total winning percentage. The team whose opponents have the higher winning percentage wins the tiebreaker.")

From: Manouche

To: j9s3
This Post:
00
166078.55 in reply to 166078.54
Date: 12/21/2010 4:31:19 PM
Overall Posts Rated:
699699
How is Team A probably stronger since Team A has lost to worst teams that Team B ? Isn't it an indication it is probably weaker ? :D

You are trying hard here, hats off to you !
There is no point in trying to find who is the better team from two who are tied in wins and point differential over 22 games ! Points scored is simple and effective. It doesn't mean that the team who scored more points is better, both teams are of equal force to the point they are causing an upset in the forum and should both be demoted to set an example.

From: Monkeybiz

To: j9s3
This Post:
00
166078.56 in reply to 166078.54
Date: 12/21/2010 5:33:36 PM
Overall Posts Rated:
237237
Really? Name one reason how a team that scores more points per game is better than a team that scores less points per game.


Most sporting competition favors the more offensive team. Everything else being equal, a team that is able to score more is ranked higher than the one that scores less because to win, you have to be able to score.

Your logic for H2H does not work here and is even more unfair. It works in the NBA because all teams play their best lineup all games. In BB, there are some teams you only play once and it is luck of the draw whether this game will be at home or away. At other times, you are deliberately resting starters for game shape reasons so at all times your best players might not even be in the game. E.g if you are going on a cup run, some teams will tank a league game in order to be able to field a full strength lineup for the cup. Does this mean their team is weak? not necessarily. It just means they didn't field their strongest lineup in a league game.

Again, you may not agree with this argument, but you cannot deny that there is some logic in it, and that it should theoretically work for over 50% of the time.


I never denied your argument and I never claimed it was illogical. Like I said, H2H has its place but in an environment like BB, it is not the best or most logical approach.

From: j9s3

This Post:
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166078.57 in reply to 166078.55
Date: 12/21/2010 8:09:06 PM
Overall Posts Rated:
5151
How is Team A probably stronger since Team A has lost to worst teams that Team B ? Isn't it an indication it is probably weaker ? :D

I never said Team A lost to worst teams than Team B. I said Team A beat better teams than Team B. Team A and Team B are from different conferences. They play each team in their conference twice, and each team in the opposite conference once, so their schedules are not identical, and the number of games against tough teams are not identical.
:D

Points scored is simple and effective. It doesn't mean that the team who scored more points is better


That's exactly what I have been saying. Thank you.

Last edited by j9s3 at 12/21/2010 8:09:29 PM

From: j9s3

This Post:
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166078.58 in reply to 166078.56
Date: 12/21/2010 8:16:54 PM
Overall Posts Rated:
5151
Alright, we're getting closer...

Most sporting competition favors the more offensive team. Everything else being equal, a team that is able to score more is ranked higher than the one that scores less because to win, you have to be able to score.

Since both teams are tied in records and points differential, they obviously have been able to score... To be able to win, you also have to be able to play defense. If you have no guys playing defense, the other team scores every time. To be able to win, you also have to be able to rebound. Otherwise, the other team just keeps shooting and getting offensive rebounds until they score.
Again, basketball is not a shooting competition. No scoring = automatic loss. No defense = automatic loss. No rebounding = automatic loss, etc.
Total points is just a boxscore stat like total rebounds. It doesn't mean anything other than the fact that one team is more offensively focused, and the other is more defensively focused. Or, one team plays at a faster pace, and the other plays at a slower pace. Or, one team has played more OT games than another team.

And I did not say H2H was perfect. I also suggested a couple other options which are reasonable. H2H is just an example of a "more-reasonable" option than total points.

From: Manouche

To: j9s3
This Post:
00
166078.59 in reply to 166078.57
Date: 12/22/2010 9:30:26 AM
Overall Posts Rated:
699699
You never said it. Who said you said it ? I used a postulate like you do. You pick the more favorable situations that suits your point ignoring all others and the how and why two unequal teams would be tied, teams improve or weaken relatively over the course of a season, schedule randomness, injuries, opponent's effort...

Strenght of victory would be far better that H2H even though it's not perfect. You keep asking why points scored shows the better team when people are saying that points scored is a simple tie-breaker, you are still looking for the better team when they have managed to tie beyond likeliness, others are looking for a simple solution to untie irritating teams. It's a different approach of the problem, will you recognize that ? It's already the fourth tie-breaker after wins, walkovers and PD. Points scored is a simple concept, it shows on the league standings, it's practical.

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