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While a little crude, what you just described is I'm pretty sure what the gay community would like. I don't think they want to be defined by their sexuality anymore than an African-American wants to be defined by their skin color. This is about changing a long-standing homphobia in professional sports more than it is about Jason Collins wanting the world to know his sexuality.

The last two posts said it better than I could, so I both tip my hat to Tangosz and yeppers and give them my balls.

Maybe now Chris Paul can come out.

Chris Bosh, you mean? ;)

I guess it's a sign of American's rapidly changing view on homosexuality that folks can now make the straight faced arguement that it's not "relevant or courageous" to come out. Even if not as often as in the very recent past, being openly gay sets people up for being ostracized, discimination, and real violence. While Collins is not likely to face these as much as your average schmo, I'd argue that anyone coming out still remains a courageous act in this country.

Only a heterosexual person, who never had to worry about a co-worker's, schoolmate's, a friend's, or their own mother's or father's reaction when they told them who they wanted to go on a date with, or who they wanted to hold hands with, would be able to say something like this.

And to reduce it to "what gets inserted where" is a pretty shallow understanding of sexuality. I'd like to think my relationship with my wife is a lot more than just that.

I think that's the irony of this issue....A gay person can say how they feel, give all the reasons they believe they are the way they are, and it's acceptable....a straight person can defend gay people, same thing...but if a person is not sympathetic or in agreement with anything dealing with this issue, and they are shallow, right-winged, Bible thumper, narrow minded, or whatever else.

You are correct, your relationship with your wife is more than just about the act of sex...and a gay person should feel free to love who they want....and I don't look at your relationship with your wife as courageous, or anything that should be put on a pedestal, just like gay people in love shouldn't be either. Who people love shouldn't matter to the next person....but with this issue, and the sympathetic nature that has come from it, like Fewmit said, a changing view on homosexuality, the media and others are now esteeming them for declaring this aspect of their lives.

We can get into the a big debate of all the pro's and con's if you like...but when it comes to Professional Sports, the Military, and other fields, this "courageous" decision has far reaching implications that affect more than just the person coming out....and not all of those things are positive for everyone involved.

I am not saying that a gay person shouldn't come out, or shouldn't be able to be honest with who they are, but just like in this post, where I point out a different point of view, and am called shallow...there are others that have to work in close proximity with that person, who might be very uncomfortable it (their feelings are real too, and it doesn't make them a bad person)...whether its a trust issue on the basketball court, in the battlefield...or a new-found awkwardness taking a shower around that person...others are affected. But if any of those people are genuinely uncomfortable about it, their feelings don't matter, because we are "evolving" as a nation, and their teammate made a "courageous" decision.

I'm just waiting for UFC fighters to come out as they're basically making gay porn for supposedly straight guys on a weekly basis. On a more serious note, sort of, good for Jason Collins. Like all other happily married straight men out there, my only wish for the homosexual community is that they be allowed to marry and get yelled at for not doing the dishes and not making the bed like the rest of us.

It's not that those people's feelings don't matter, but history is filled with people who found a way to say they were uncomfortable with others for reasons that we no longer look at as legitimate. They were just prejudiced, and we don't have to go out of our way to make prejudiced people comfortable. The burden is on them.

50 years ago, Jason Collins wouldn't have been allowed to eat at the same lunch counter or use the same drinking fountain as a white teammate playing in many parts of this country. Go watch "42" and see how Jackie Robinson tried to put his white teammates at ease by showering last and separately.

But today, if a white NBA player said he had awkwardness taking a shower next to a black teammate, we wouldn't give it a drop of credence as feelings we need to respect. And Jason Collins has no more control over his sexual preference than his skin color, and it's as simple as that.

Everyone should go read "The Sneetches" and remember that we're all people, and none of the other stuff matters. Seriously.

I dont see any difference in what you described and what men said about women being in the military or the workplace 100 years ago, or what white people said about black kids going to schools with their children 70 years ago. The fact of the matter is that you can't take something away from someone, or in this case, force them to hide it, because you aren't comfortable with it.

EDIT: redcped beat me to it :)



Last edited by yeppers at 4/30/2013 12:47:34 PM

Well said, as was the previous message.

You are correct, your relationship with your wife is more than just about the act of sex...and a gay person should feel free to love who they want....and I don't look at your relationship with your wife as courageous, or anything that should be put on a pedestal, just like gay people in love shouldn't be either. Who people love shouldn't matter to the next person....but with this issue, and the sympathetic nature that has come from it, like Fewmit said, a changing view on homosexuality, the media and others are now esteeming them for declaring this aspect of their lives.

Ever see people put pictures of them and their family in their office? Ever see people wear a wedding ring (and assume they're married to a person of the opposite sex?) Do you know the names of your co-workers' spouses? Ever hear someone answer the phone using a typically opposite sex name, and end the conversation with "I love you."? Ever see parents smile when two little kids of the opposite sex kiss one another (and compare it to reactions when two boys or two girls kissed)? All of these are examples of what most of society expects, and they're in your face, being "declared" every single day. Gay people just want the same ability to do those things, without fear of people hating, or hurting them.

We can get into the a big debate of all the pro's and con's if you like...but when it comes to Professional Sports, the Military, and other fields, this "courageous" decision has far reaching implications that affect more than just the person coming out....and not all of those things are positive for everyone involved.

Sure, but you got any real evidence that there are "far reaching consequences"? If the military studies and experience since the end of DADT demonstrate that there's no significant adverse effects, then that's good enough for me. And if it applies in the military, then it would take a lot to convince me that it doesn't apply to sports teams, or your gym shower.

I am not saying that a gay person shouldn't come out, or shouldn't be able to be honest with who they are, but just like in this post, where I point out a different point of view, and am called shallow...there are others that have to work in close proximity with that person, who might be very uncomfortable it (their feelings are real too, and it doesn't make them a bad person)...whether its a trust issue on the basketball court, in the battlefield...or a new-found awkwardness taking a shower around that person...others are affected. But if any of those people are genuinely uncomfortable about it, their feelings don't matter, because we are "evolving" as a nation, and their teammate made a "courageous" decision.

Saying that you may feel be uncomfortable around gay people doesn't make you a bad person. Saying that gay people should hide such a large part of their authentic self because you just don't want to deal with those feelings is, I dunno about 'bad', but definitely pretty weak (and it essentially does say to them, "please don't come out").

This not to deny that you're experiencing those feelings, but your rational self can keep them in check. And while you're thinking about your own feelings of being uncomfortable, try and think how many times you might feel uncomfortable if you were gay. [And all of this doesn't even touch on what fewmit brought up, which is the threat of real violence that gay people have experienced, and still do, for being their true self].

Irony

When a gay person come out, it seems they want to be accepted and not treated differently. However, what they do is draw attention to themselves as being different and thus get treated differently, and now by other people are not accepted.


I could careless if your blue, gay, black, white, Muslim, Jewish, Catholic, straight, bi, a gun owner, etc. Just don't tell me how to live my life or judge me, and I'll grant you the same.