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But wouldn't the reasons the players today (training) are stronger/faster be applied to any player of "then" that we brought forward to "now"?
Same with putting LeBron "back". He wouldn't have the same training, nor would he have had the benefits he accrued since he was a kid.

Nope. That's the pretty part of the time machine, we compare them as they are vs as they were and in that only scenario Lebron is better than michael Jordan because I´m quite sure MJ would have adapted his play and training to whatever was necessary to dominate. That mentality made him the best.

However, I also think Lebron makes his teammates better players, Cleveland finished regular season as number 1 with him and last without him, that's how important he was.

Fair enough... if that's the limits of the time machine then (so... we can't bring 'em back/forward when they're younger?), understood.

Sidenote: how do you guys think the Finals impacted this entire conversation?

AND finally, if we are trying to fake a time machine and put Lebron as he is now playing in the past, I'm quite sure he would be the best player and would dominate the League even above Jordan as he is taller, faster and stronger and has a very close talent. But is just an opinion, it's impossible to prove any of this.

First of all, if LeBron were to play in the past, he couldn't have been on steroids so domination is out of the question

BUT if we are trying to compare stats that's impossible as they don't face the same opposition and don't play the same kinda basketball.

agree with you on this one, However, Jordan did play in 2002 and played quite well so...

There's a reason for all those rule changes: Defenses started to get better and better, so the points per game were dropping and for marketing purposes it doesn't seem to be a good thing, to say the rules were changed to help other guards to be Jordan isn't serious. You disagree?? Watch the videos, watch a Bill Chamberlain game, then watch Lakers vs Celtics in the 80's, then Chicago vs Utah in the 90s, then the Kobe Shaq Lakers vs whatever in the 00s and then watch again last week final games.

Are you serious? Defense now in the NBA, is as poor as it ever was. If you watched playoff basketball when Jordan, Miller, and the Knicks in particular were playing you'd see what i mean.

watch Lakers vs Celtics in the 80s and you'll be surprised as how slow and naive were the defensive reactions. It looks like a training match, there's no D if you compare it with what you are used to watch today. It's all in youtube..

the 80s are NOT the discussion of the thread however physicality was at it's best back then.

So what you want to compare: impact in the game?? Mental attributes?? Jordan by a mile. No doubt. But that's as far as I'd go.

I will add defense, and team play(!) on Jordan's part, and involving everyone. He was a team-oriented player despite his scoring ability.

And for Lebron i would just add much more hype, and that's as far as i would go


EDIT: and the way he reacts to physical defenders that are on him is just awful, and childish

Last edited by Boston Celts at 6/15/2011 4:15:55 AM

I will add defense, and team play(!) on Jordan's part, and involving everyone. He was a team-oriented player despite his scoring ability.

And shooting. Jordan was a MUCH better shooter...

Fair enough... if that's the limits of the time machine then (so... we can't bring 'em back/forward when they're younger?), understood.

Sidenote: how do you guys think the Finals impacted this entire conversation?

A young current player (lebron in this example) is sent to past to play vs those players when they were playing (so young too).

The finals only made more visible what was already not a mistery: Lebron James (currently, at least) lacks the mental strenght required to match his talent.

Last edited by Supermán at 6/15/2011 6:19:28 AM

What makes you think Lebron is on steroids and former players like... KArl Malone... were not?? Karl Malone's body doesn't look more "natural".

I watched Jordan, I watched Miller and I watched the Knicks back in those days and I disagree with you. Defense back then was not even close than today's. Objects in rearview mirror may appear closer than they are. Check back the videos & compare open mindedly.

The 80s is not the point of discussion, I'm just trying to show how the game evolved. But it's not in the 80s there was no D-fence nad then in the Jordan era suddenly it appeared and we saw the best defenses ever and then when Jordan retired defenses suddenly dissapeared again as you seem to be saying...

Jordan's team play appeared late in his career, his first 5 or more years he was a go to basket player. Lebron has averaged 7 assists in his career. SO what you mean for a better team play?? Jordan had more leadership, no doubt, and he gave his teammates more confidence, I agree there 100% and he had a more positive attitude out of the field. But again, Cleveland with lebron were first and without were last, that may say something about Lebron.

Lebron has a ton of haters (me included). He earned that with his tatoo "The chosen one", with the show that ended up with him in Miami, with his attitude inside and outside the court, etc... but that's not what we are supossed to discuss here and I think many of you are writing very "hate-influenced"

I have a bud whose wife is a psychologist. She says she thinks LeBron has some anxiety issues.

But I disagree on D, and I think a large part of that's officiating: it was DEFINITELY tougher in the 80s - they could get away with a heap more. Hell, listen to Kevin McHale talk about the difference between now and then (he discussed this very point on NBA Today).

Defense back then was not even close than today's. Objects in rearview mirror may appear closer than they are. Check back the videos & compare open mindedly.

(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mlolzcidq0o) - Bulls Pistons ECF '91, two of the best def in the NBA that year

(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-QbU-SBJQ8) - Bulls Heat EFC '11, two of the best def this year

Same intensity, frantic rotations on def trying to close down shooters, full court pressure. The main difference? Much better TV resolution!

Last edited by brian at 6/15/2011 9:50:14 AM

Just one point I'll throw out there:

Given how the NBA is now a global game, there's a much bigger pool of talent to draw from and players are probably, on the whole, more athletic than they once were. 30 years ago, a 7-foot German Nirk Nowitski of the 1980's would have been an amateur tennis player since he would not have had the local resources to play basketball as a teenager. Even through the 1970s basketball was still very far from being a huge sport in the US. The NBA still had a reputation for being a league of substance abusers and felons. This is among the reasons why Larry Bird and Magic Johnson are put on such a high pedestal in NBA lore, they were the big stars that were helping to attract new fans and rid the league of its "other sport" reputation. The best athletes pre-1980s were playing other sports. Not to try to detract too much from the Wilt Chamberlains and Bill Russells of yesterday, but... you think Wilt would have scored 100 points or pulled down 30 rebounds against Shaq? By the time Kareem was finishing up his career, there a whole lot more athletic 7-footers in the league to contend with. Those guys would still be All Stars, maybe even all-time greats, but it helps when you're the biggest fish in a smaller pool. To be dominant today, a player really needs to be something extra special.

And second, you really can't compare eras without understanding how the rules change, styles and trends change, etc. MJ would be great today because his competitiveness wouldn't allow him to be otherwise. Greatness will shine in any generation, but winning championships in a team sport like basketball is about more than one player. But then again, the champs still need at least one great player.

And third, wasn't I just going to make only one point?