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Bit of a segway from the recent Buoc Pham saga.

Firstly this post is not a witch-hunt or blame game. Just want to get some dicussion going surrounding NT training player mentoring etc etc.

We have these concepts now of U21 manager, U21 SF mentor, NT C/PF mentors etc etc. Yet somehow we will lose this guy.
So here are the relevant Pham's stats who by the way is 26, HoF 7'0
Jump Shot: respectable Jump Range: awful
Outside Def.: awful Handling: pitiful
Driving: respectable Passing: atrocious
Inside Shot: colossal Inside Def.: colossal ↑
Rebounding: marvelous Shot Blocking: strong

and a recent post by Whitebeard quotes

. His secondaries aren't even up to scratch which is extremely important at the national level.

- which has been echoed by other managers and yer thats cool......

Again, no offence to Bainsy who trained him for the last 3 seasons after picking him up as a Free Agent. But two points I want to raise.

A) So how does this guy end up with Atrocious passing? As being part of the U21 team, and then probably on the horizons after that for NT duties, how come nobody stepped in? you have 8 seasons of a trainee to get to 26 and nobody could spare one season of guard training on the guy?
Perhaps this guy wasn't on the radar of the NT manager's, but by the sounds of it, he should have been! I realise maybe it didnt fit into Bainsy's training plan for past 3 seasons so fair enough, but shouldnt fringe NT players be on the radar of a relevant mentor/coach/manager and all is required is a quick? "Hey Bainsy, if you want him to be NT, you will need his Passing to be at least inept by the time he is 26".... or something like that.
Maybe this did happen i dont know.

And b) should we as a community have done better to alert his sale to the community?

ill say it again - not pointing fingers as B-mac here at all......, but fk we have forums dedicated to Aussie player sales, we have mentors left right n centre, so perhaps we need to look at better ways of tracking this kind of thing such that it doesnt happen as often. Whitebeard listed him in the player ad's in 2012 - ill bet a million bucks WB was NT coach then. Or U21 or something.

DW is about to take over from an aging NT where 34 year olds will probably get a gig. (that means i can play!!!!!!!)....As part of NT manager/assistant/mentor, there should be more involvement over future potential trainee's to have better 'turnover' as such.....I think too many people are worried about the 'now' in terms of U21/NT and too few worried about 'the future'.....
Now maybe there is and Buoc is an exception to the rule, im just using this situation to bring it to the forefront.

Id like a 1000 word essay from each of you on this matter on my desk by 10am tomorrow.

Dire and I have all ready raised an better system for guys past 21 NT who could make the NT side.
Yes it seems this guy never got the training he needed in passing. He could of also used some Rebounding.

Well people can only put so much time into this and over the last six months of real time there has been an awesome buzz about the U21 team while the senior team has been a stony silence. People are attracted by the buzz, it is just natural. I am hoping things will change this week (with two NT players I am very interested in what happens).

Things changed when Brooksy took over.

Scouted players @ Season 22 which includes Pham with skills that I wanted him to have which includes 3 passing because Sun Cunming one of our legends was really good even with 3 passing and pointless to over train a skill where we could focus elsewhere - http://forum.buzzerbeaterstats.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&...

At 23 this was his skills and recommended training by me.

Jump Shot: average Jump Range: awful
Outside Def.: awful Handling: pitiful
Driving: respectable Passing: atrocious
Inside Shot: prodigious Inside Def.: marvelous
Rebounding: wondrous Shot Blocking: average
Stamina: awful Free Throw: pitiful

Experience: inept

Recommended training: ID (17+), IS (17+), RB (16+), Forward 1on1 (DR 10+), PS (3+), FT (50%+), ST (4+)

Staff @ Season 22 and I'm not sure if Melbourne demons the previous manager ever was responsive to Micky so wouldn't know if he followed the recommended training - http://forum.buzzerbeaterstats.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&...

Scouted bigs @ Season 23 by Micky with slightly changed recommended training - http://forum.buzzerbeaterstats.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&...

Season 24 Brooksy makes a comment about taking over big men training after Micky gets U21 gig.

I never heard from the previous owner. Sent a couple of messages. There is only so much you can do.
When he changed teams he was fitting into their plan for other players.
I must say it is far more enjoyable to deal with newer users all excited about getting a player in the 21 NT side. We need to keep these people going. Sadly what we need for the 21 NT sometimes effects their early training. One of our current players their manager wanted to do 2ndaries but I twisted his arm to focus on main skills which he did and now they are one of our key players. They are now working on the 2ndaries.
Hopefully we can streamline the process and take advantage of the good draftees we get each season which is limited and ensure we have a steady inflow and path to the NT side.

Bit of a segway from the recent Buoc Pham saga.

Firstly this post is not a witch-hunt or blame game. Just want to get some dicussion going surrounding NT training player mentoring etc etc

Wow

Plus one and absolutely brilliant analysis

Dont want a witch hunt on Brooksy.

There is an old saying people dont fail, systems do.

For all we know Brooksy might be a 15yo kid whos done better than his best

Maybe we need to put in some systems.

Perhaps a job position for both National Manager jobs, a list of expectations and have some sort of audit or end of season report to see that the job and the expectations are getting done as they are meant to be.

Be great if we can make a positive out of this negative loss of a player which happenned on many levels, in that he wasnt trained as he should have been and that he slipped through the market as well

Good points Whitebeard about the system failures

There is also a system problem with the way that the game is structured.

Was the Manager able to fire the player and by doing so avoid paying his weekly paycheck and if so is this "fair" after only buying him a few days before?

Why is it so cheap to buy "monsters"?

Is it right that "monsters" get auto listed way above their estimated value?


The U21s argument also is a point.

In horse racing there is a belief that a lot of good horses are getting developed to quickly to chase the 2 yo races and as a result never mature properly.

U21s to some extent does encourage the development of "non balanced players"

Should we consider excluding HOFs and alltime greats from U21s so that they can get the proper foundation skills required to make them potential National Team Players?

Perhaps consider only MVPs and down for U21s?


Last edited by Sid Vicious at 9/22/2013 9:03:32 AM

Maybe we need a NT Committee of the NT, 21 NT and 3 others who can look these things? I think with high potential guys to take them fully out of 21 will make it harder for a newer manager to follow a training plan of 7 or 8 seasons to make the NT. While the 21 NT is 3 seasons of training to get some reward. But I think any high potential guys need to be contacted once they finish 21 NT by someone from the NT and informed of the benefit of doing some 2ndary training at that stage. Sometimes we get lucky and get high potential guys with good 2ndaries. But sadly we do not get a lot of them at all.

Holy crap a commitee!?!?! Look at what ive done!!!!!!!!!!!

thanks all for posting - look a lot of good work has been done with having assistants in thte U21.
NT guys tend to be peaking around late 20's, so really, maybe it should just be the same for NT as for U21.
NT assistants for 25/26's, 27's and 28's. scout, ask for skills, training plan, give the NT manager an update on what the team is going to be like in 2-3 seasons time.
Some guys might be in NT earlier, some might not. same as U21.

We have already taken good steps with the U21, lets build on that.

DW made a very interesting point before about wandering interest in the game. already we have a few big names sitting around in Div II, III, IV, just chilling and tanking/training etc. Some of these tasks might be good for them to get over the grind of a tanking season. GIve them some responsibility and a sense of importance in the game.

I dont feel its neccassary to exclude Hofmers and above from U21, but i do know EXACTLY what Sid is talking about. U get an U21 guy, you train him to make sure he stays in that team, not so taht he can make NT in 7 seasons time.
but fortunately its 7 seasons LOL.... so there is time to make up that 'balance'.

Keep up the good work everyone.

Maybe we need a NT Committee of the NT, 21 NT and 3 others who can look these things? I think with high potential guys to take them fully out of 21 will make it harder for a newer manager to follow a training plan of 7 or 8 seasons to make the NT. While the 21 NT is 3 seasons of training to get some reward. But I think any high potential guys need to be contacted once they finish 21 NT by someone from the NT and informed of the benefit of doing some 2ndary training at that stage. Sometimes we get lucky and get high potential guys with good 2ndaries. But sadly we do not get a lot of them at all

Good points, perhaps however a HOF trainee, perhaps should be directed by the National Team coach with regards to training even if still of an age when eligible to play for U21s, and if they are still good enough to play U21s then let them play.

(Bigger picture rather than quick success)

Yourself and Iwen are great, but I resisted pressure from both of you at different stages with regards to how I trained Williams, as you both at one stage wanted me to focus on JS etc, where as I was committed to training Inside skills.

The "template" for required skills for Aussie U21 SFs actually changed whilst during Iwens last season as coach.

Not saying either of you were wrong, if Id trained JS & JR instead of inside skills he might have ultimately ended up a better player in the long run as well as being a better U21s player.

I do like the idea of a committe but its systems we need and not just more volunteers and positions.

(spoken like a true systems auditor, my business opens in about 2 weeks time)

Having this debate, especially with the direction that the excellent points by Coach Regan and Whitebeard, is great

On a separate topic its quite possible that Dire and myself probably know each other in real life

Given from memory that he lives in Bewrick and I live in Narre, its probable that we might know each other through either Dandenong or Cranbourne Basketball stadiums




Last edited by Sid Vicious at 9/22/2013 9:43:35 AM

You are from Nazza Wazza? That explains a lot!

U21s to some extent does encourage the development of "non balanced players"

Should we consider excluding HOFs and alltime greats from U21s so that they can get the proper foundation skills required to make them potential National Team Players?

Perhaps consider only MVPs and down for U21s?

A simple solution would be to have a second group of young players, those that may not make U21 but could/should make NT one day. This would allow people to do the secondaries training in the early years, thus likely making them useless for U21, however it would make them more valuable (and more likely) for NT in the long run. As you said, training for U21 encourages non balanced players, but training well rounded players can get players off the U21 radar and therefore off the mentor program. The two goals do not always go together however the current mentor system forces it.

My 2c.