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Private league 10

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212354.503 in reply to 212354.502
Date: 9/30/2012 4:56:09 AM
Overall Posts Rated:
441441
You make some strong points, Naker, but so does Yoda. As for the 7 year old girl scenario, I would not sacrifice my 7 yr old for the sake of curing cancer. Nor would I sacrifice a 7 yr old girl I do not know. No parent would. It's that simple.

While I have never been an advocate of corporal punishment, I do believe it may become possible in the future where the element of 'doubt' is removed through science. If this eventuates then I would say that corporal punishment should be mandatory, paricularly in the case of premeditated murder. However, as you would appreciate, life and law consist of shades of grey and rarely comprise of definable black or white scenarios and, for this reason alone, corporal punishment has no place until science catches up.

As for your objection to prisoners working, I think Yoda meant (I'm assuming) that the prisoners would work within the prison enviornment and not out in the community where, as you so rightly noted, there is an increased risk of escape and additional crimes.

I will make one last point which, if nothing else, simply highlights what I said above about the shades of greay that exist currently and why corporal punishment has no place at present. I am a school teacher working in a low socio-economic area/school. The home lives of the students in my school would send shivers down the nape of your necks were I to relate them. I stand out in the playground on duty most days and as I scan the students' faces, I instinctively recall parts of each students' background known to me. As I mentally move and reflect on student after student I am often reduced to a sad place. Overtime these reflections have lead me to seriously worry about the kind of adults they will become. More importantly, the situations these students may find themsleves in on account of their lack of upbringing.

While I hope that many will mature, with the support of those of us in education, into functional adults, there will no doubt be many (already know of too many) who will find themselves commiting serious crimes. It is possible, perhaps likely that someone I have taught may one day murder another human being. Now, if I had a simple and unrealistic view of life and the law, I might demand the death penalty for such a person without knowing the background. However, it is knowing this history that often allows us educators to find solutions or routes that might allow a student to grow. It is this possibility for rehabilitation that the government no doubt holds on to. Hope is one attribute the human species has that is admirable.

I know your rebuttal, Naker, might be along the lines of "we cant ignore every murder because every murderer has a bad upbringing", I simple suggest, or try to highlight the shades of grey that life comprises of. To sit back and objectively make decisions on whether another living being deserves to live or die is not a simple one and definately not one we are ready or capable of making. As a species we are too young, immature and disconnected. Perhaps science can bridge this.

That's my two cents worth.



Last edited by Mr J at 9/30/2012 5:02:36 AM

This Post:
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212354.504 in reply to 212354.503
Date: 9/30/2012 6:33:23 AM
Overall Posts Rated:
522522
As for the 7 year old girl scenario, I would not sacrifice my 7 yr old for the sake of curing cancer. Nor would I sacrifice a 7 yr old girl I do not know. No parent would. It's that simple.


I understand what you are saying, but that is because you are letting emotion overpower reason. You are right though, I personally wouldn't sacrifice my 7 year old daughter. However, that would be because I would let emotion cloud my judgement. Killing the 7 year old child is still the right thing to do, even if you can't bring yourself to do it. If you don't kill the 7 year old child, even the one you don't know, then you are essentially responsible for every single person that dies from cancer. You are responsible for the mother of three with breast cancer passing away. You are responsible for the 4 year old with lung cancer that passes away mere hours before his fifth birthday. You are responsible for all of them because you let emotion over power you. There is a reason we don't let families of victims decide the punishment for criminals. There is a reason we don't let doctors operate on loved ones. This reason is emotion. It prevents you from acting in the "right" way. The right thing to do would be to kill the child. Yes, it is hard to accept, but doing the right thing isn't always meant to be easy.

As for your objection to prisoners working, I think Yoda meant (I'm assuming) that the prisoners would work within the prison enviornment and not out in the community where, as you so rightly noted, there is an increased risk of escape and additional crimes.


Why should they work in the prison environment? Who does that benefit? What possible gain is there for society?

In relation to your story about the children in the playground, I understand that environment plays a huge role in making us who we are. But that does not mean that we should not be held accountable for our actions. As you rightly predicted, "We can't ignore every murder because ever murderer has a bad upbringing". I realise that life is hard for some people, and even harder for others. But let me try give you an analogy:

Imagine that you own a factory. You are the manager of it in every way, shape or form. Your factory produces T-shirts of various colours and designs. You have recently purchased the best T-shirt making machine available on the market. The quality of some of the shirts are superb! But unfortunately, once in every 100 shirts the shirt has a small rip in it or has been shredded completely. You've investigated the problem and have found that sometimes the material of the shirts are just weaker and so tear more easily, and sometimes the labels on the shirts get caught in the machine causing rips. There is nothing you can do to stop the ripping. Unfortunately, the people buying your shirts are getting upset that they sometimes receive bad shirts. You need to find a solution to the problem. Do you just do nothing and let the bad shirts get shipped out to stores along with the good ones? Do you try and sew the rips back together and hope the people buying them don't notice? Or do you do the responsible thing and throw away the damaged shirts? You could recycle the shirts or burn them, I don't think it matters, but at the end of the day you need to remove the damaged shirts from shipment, even though it is not the shirt's fault that it tore.

From: tremell
This Post:
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212354.505 in reply to 212354.503
Date: 9/30/2012 6:46:19 AM
Overall Posts Rated:
224224
Really good read guys, good points by all...

Slightly off this topic but can someone stop these bloody illegal boats!

Disclaimer: Now im not comparing murderers or the scummiest of scum in jail to boat people because obviously a lot of those people have come from terrible situations or horrific backgrounds on those boats..

Ok so when you talk about the financial cost to the country keeping murderers and other scum alive for years on end, I would hate to think how much as a country we are spending on these boat people in detention who are trying to jump the queue! Because being soft is only encouraging more boats. We have an official process in place to let refugees and displaced individuals who need to escape and want to come to Australia. It's tough because there is fellow human beings involved but in my opinion anyone who tries to get in on a boat should never be allowed in, now or in the future as a deterrent. This will stop a majority of boats and then we can focus some of that money and put it into helping the real refugees and speed up the official immigration process in place to help them asap

Anyway just my thoughts after seeing another 500 boat people intercepted in the last 3 days.

This Post:
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212354.506 in reply to 212354.504
Date: 9/30/2012 7:33:15 AM
Overall Posts Rated:
241241
Naker "The Dictator" Virus

This Post:
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212354.507 in reply to 212354.506
Date: 9/30/2012 7:41:29 AM
Overall Posts Rated:
522522
:D

This Post:
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212354.508 in reply to 212354.504
Date: 9/30/2012 9:06:00 AM
Overall Posts Rated:
441441
I understand your point, Naker, but comparing living beings to t-shirts is an unfair analogy. However, using your analogy (where the manager is the goverment, the factory society and the machine the prison system) you are, in effect, suggesting the prison system is at fault. I would disagree with that given that societal views and expectations and the laws we have in place have a greater impact on producing poor t-shirts ;-) Perhaps the analogy you have used isn't quite accurate but I see your point. However, I will say this: your analogy reinforces my previous point regarding the need for science to catchup in order for our laws to be more effective. The "best T-shirt making machine available" if we viewed this machine as the legal system, would be more accurate. Removing that 'reasonable doubt' through science would allow for corporal punishment to exist and function as it should.

As for the 7 yr old girl example, I would reluctantly accept the responsibility for future cancer-caused deaths as I would not sacrifice a single living spirit. Yes it's an emotional repsonse but we are emotional.

In the end, my friend, we will simply have to agree to disagree. :-)

This Post:
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212354.509 in reply to 212354.508
Date: 9/30/2012 9:42:19 AM
Overall Posts Rated:
522522
In the end, my friend, we will simply have to agree to disagree. :-)


haha fair enough :)

This Post:
22
212354.510 in reply to 212354.493
Date: 9/30/2012 9:46:03 AM
Overall Posts Rated:
372372
And so what if some times an innocent person dies? Two words: collateral damage! No system is perfect, but at the end of the day if one innocent person dying means that the world is a better place overall, then that is an acceptable loss.


You're a fucking disgrace of a human being. I can't even begin to put into words just how ridiculous some of the dribble you post on here really is.

I'm not even going to argue with you. If you really believe any of the crap you post on here to be true, then you're an absolute fucking disgrace of a person. The world would be better off without oxygen thieves like you.

From: Mr J

This Post:
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212354.511 in reply to 212354.510
Date: 9/30/2012 9:54:43 AM
Overall Posts Rated:
441441
And so what if some times an innocent person dies? Two words: collateral damage! No system is perfect, but at the end of the day if one innocent person dying means that the world is a better place overall, then that is an acceptable loss.


You're a fucking disgrace of a human being. I can't even begin to put into words just how ridiculous some of the dribble you post on here really is.

I'm not even going to argue with you. If you really believe any of the crap you post on here to be true, then you're an absolute fucking disgrace of a person. The world would be better off without oxygen thieves like you.



Whoa! Steady on there, Matt. Naker is entitled to his opinions. There is definately no need for personal attacks like that, mate.

This Post:
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212354.512 in reply to 212354.495
Date: 9/30/2012 9:57:56 AM
Overall Posts Rated:
372372
All good points you make regarding the death penalty and they pretty much sum up why I've never supported it. I think the biggest thing for me is the chance of an innocent person being put to death, especially when you here of cases where people are exonerated after being on death row (or worse, found to be innocent after being executed). I agree with you in saying I don't think I'd like to live in a society where that could happen.

It's cases like Jill's that start to confuse my thoughts on the death penalty. I think it might've hit home because I can relate to their circumstances (a couple of years younger, engaged, etc), but I just can't get past how awful the husband would be feeling right now. If that happened to me, I don't know that I would ever get over it.

I think you can only discuss the death penalty in cases that you have no connection too. I think if this happened to a family member or someone close to you, it would be much more difficult to argue against the death penalty. So from a neutral position, I agree with everything you said and oppose it too. If it happened to someone close to me however, I'd want to pull the trigger myself.

From: Matt1986

To: Mr J
This Post:
00
212354.513 in reply to 212354.511
Date: 9/30/2012 10:00:46 AM
Overall Posts Rated:
372372
That's gone way past an 'opinion'. If someone is going to post absolute crap like that, I reserve the right to tell him that he's disgrace.


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