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The Quest to get 48 minutes training in one game

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This Post:
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272865.51 in reply to 272865.50
Date: 8/15/2015 4:32:08 AM
The LA Lions
NBBA
Overall Posts Rated:
200200
Yo Lemonshine, why do you have to prepare for something that has no effect?

These things aren't mutually exclusive. Player A didn't get 48 minutes because he had rock bottom stamina. Player B didn't get 48 minutes because the lineup didn't account for the substitution patterns of being on the winning side of a garbage time game.

This is the guy (31028459) I had with rock bottom 1 stamina. Here he got subbed out with 3.19 to go and never returned (as any player who gets subbed out due to stamina depletion does). http://www.buzzerbeater.com/match/66015900/reportmatch.as...

I can swear that 9 out of 10 of his 48 minutes were not actually 48+ but he lost seconds at the end of most games, be it a blow out or not. I had to sell my weakest trainee in order to make sure I'd be able to round his minutes, but it still was a nightmare because it was completely unpredictable and I ended under or overplaying other players. In S26 he also averaged 4.2 fouls per game which means in many cases I didn't even get to see how his game would end. I think he managed to foul out in the first half more than once.


Why not just train stamina for a week? It kind of sounds like you cost yourself more than a week's worth of training anyway, in addition to the other complications.







This Post:
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272865.52 in reply to 272865.51
Date: 8/15/2015 6:12:13 AM
Overall Posts Rated:
14901490
why do you have to prepare for something that has no effect?
Because you prepare for both GT and no GT knowing that it's most likely a trainee gets pulled when specific players are on the bench

These things aren't mutually exclusive. Player A didn't get 48 minutes because he had rock bottom stamina. Player B didn't get 48 minutes because the lineup didn't account for the substitution patterns of being on the winning side of a garbage time game.
A you can't really do anything about it. B should never happen.

Why not just train stamina for a week? It kind of sounds like you cost yourself more than a week's worth of training anyway, in addition to the other complications
1) Stamina can't go lower that 1
2) The difference of effect between 1 ST and 2 ST on a trainee not being pulled at the end of games is very limited. I would have needed at least 3 ST sessions: how many missed training sessions (on all trainees) is that? Also, if you do train 3 levels, since you can't prevent training to go to the rest of the team as well, are you sure you are prepared to manage a team with many 8 and 9 stamina players?
3) Even if I trained him to 4 or 5 stamina (like Sid does when he gets trainees), would have this prevented him from fouling out? With that average of 4.2 fouls in 35 minutes, I'm really doubtful, therefore I would have still had a problem.

In the end it was either keep him (trainee #2) or another guy (trainee #3). Since he had both better skills and potential I chose to keep him (and train him over 2 games) rather than the other guy.

This Post:
11
272865.53 in reply to 272865.52
Date: 8/15/2015 1:40:41 PM
The LA Lions
NBBA
Overall Posts Rated:
200200

2) The difference of effect between 1 ST and 2 ST on a trainee not being pulled at the end of games is very limited.


If this is true, then it is because you are using CPfDC instead of SFDC. Pitiful Stamina (2) is absolutely enough to get 48+ with a lot of tactics combinations, using SFDC. Maybe not with RnG+FCP, I haven't tried that combo yet.

If your objective is to get a player 48 minutes in a single game, SFDC is the optimal choice.

3) Even if I trained him to 4 or 5 stamina (like Sid does when he gets trainees), would have this prevented him from fouling out?


Probably not. Experience, matchups and tactics plus aggresiveness would also need to be considered. But training him once in stamina would have probably allowed you to play him 48 minutes in the games where he didn't foul out, utilizing SFDC. 4 or 5 stamina would help his contribution to match ratings, but isn't necessary to reach 48 minutes.

are you sure you are prepared to manage a team with many 8 and 9 stamina players?


Yes, but if it happens it will be because I purchased them at that level, not because I spent 3 weeks training stamina for players who didn't need it to reach 48 minutes. I've trained Stamina one time in roughly 2 seasons, in a week where I had only 2 games.

Your willingness to play trainees a full 48 minutes should make training easier, not harder. The effects of GT is something you can plan to avoid, or you can use it as a guaranteed 11-13 minute block for anyone that needs it. I find GT to be a very useful tool for balancing trainee and non-trainee minutes alike.

This Post:
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272865.54 in reply to 272865.53
Date: 8/15/2015 2:17:42 PM
Overall Posts Rated:
14901490
If this is true, then it is because you are using CPfDC instead of SFDC.
Nope, you can ask your fellow american hrudey who has mentioned above a trainee with 2 ST who gets pulled irrespective of garbage time. Besides my trainee before hitting 1 and staying there for at least a season and a half was at 2 ST and even then he was getting pulled. CPfDC and SFDC have different results on minutes but that's about that. I do use SFDC in cup or scrimmage games when I have to get precise splits and I don't remember making any difference back then (believe me: I tried everything I could to prevent him from getting pulled for those last 30 seconds in the games where he did not foul out).

Some Australian managers mentioned they did some research on this and as a rule of thumb they established that, somewhere between 4 and 5 stamina, trainees stop being subbed out. So 2 isn't really enough (although it gives a nice boost performance-wise). As I said before, it's not guaranteed that 1 or 2 ST trainees get substituted: it may happen to such trainees, depending on other factors such as pace of the game and the level of the rest of the team. For example what if a 1 stamina trainee is one of the best players on the court (because the others are even worse)?

The effects of GT is something you can plan to avoid, or you can use it as a guaranteed 11-13 minute block for anyone that needs it. I find GT to be a very useful tool for balancing trainee and non-trainee minutes alike.
Of course disagree about the 'effects' of GT since I think GT is not the cause of trainees getting substituted, but I completely agree on the rest. The more balanced (e.g. 28-20) minute splits you get with garbage time are invaluable for GS management, so there is really no reason not to go for it.

Last edited by Lemonshine at 8/15/2015 2:19:55 PM

This Post:
00
272865.55 in reply to 272865.54
Date: 8/15/2015 3:11:17 PM
The LA Lions
NBBA
Overall Posts Rated:
200200
Nope, you can ask your fellow american hrudey who has mentioned above a trainee with 2 ST who gets pulled irrespective of garbage time.


I must have missed that. Can you quote it for me?

Of course disagree about the 'effects' of GT since I think GT is not the cause of trainees getting substituted, but I completely agree on the rest.


The GT message displays, and immediately at the next stoppage all starters in the game head to the bench and stay there. They are pulled because of their status as a starter, it has nothing to do with stamina at that time or their status as a "trainee". The GE has no idea who you are going to train and what that training will be. You can disagree all you want but you really couldn't be more wrong.

Now, if your trainee is pulled at some point after the wholesale substitions take place, then it is either a stamina issue, or the game is no longer judged to be out of reach by the coach/GE.

Using SFDC, there is a direct correlation between the GT message and all starters getting substituted, simultaneously. That's what garbage time is. There are ways to prevent certain players from being substituted through active roster and lineups but the effect itself is unmistakable otherwise we wouldn't have all independently developed the same strategy for subverting it.

I have to ask, are you a native English speaker? Have you watched sporting events in real life? Is the phrase garbage time something you never heard before playing this game?

From the Wiki,https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garbage_time
Garbage time, also known as "junk time", is a term used to refer to the period toward the end of a timed sporting event that has become a blowout when the outcome of the game has already been decided, and the coaches of one or both teams will decide to replace their best players with substitutes.[1] This serves to give those substitutes playing time experience in an actual game situation, as well as to protect the best players from the possibility of injury.[2]

How can you say that Garbage Time has no effect on substitutions, when substitutions, specifically nonstarters for starters, are literally by definition the thing that signals it has begun?

Last edited by Harold Miner at 8/15/2015 3:13:31 PM

This Post:
11
272865.56 in reply to 272865.55
Date: 8/15/2015 3:42:55 PM
Overall Posts Rated:
14901490
Sometimes the starters are pulled even if there is no mention of GT, but it's clear that it's garbage time.

Now, if your trainee is pulled at some point after the wholesale substitions take place, then it is either a stamina issue, or the game is no longer judged to be out of reach by the coach/GE.
Yes this is exactly what we were discussing about.

How can you say that Garbage Time has no effect on substitutions, when substitutions, specifically nonstarters for starters, are literally by definition the thing that signals it has begun?
Sorry, I never meant to express such an opinion if I ever did. I tried to explain that to in my experience Garbage Time has no direct impact on trainees being substituted in the last few minutes of a game, because it's a combination of other factors (which may indeed appear simultaneously in GT) which also appear in normal games (with no GT).

I know exactly what garbage time means in real life...there might be a possibility you slightly misunderstood what was being discussed (i.e. not garbage time itself, but why trainees sometimes cannot finish games and getting 48+ minutes).

I must have missed that. Can you quote it for me?
2 posts above your first post, mate. (272865.49)
MI had a trainee in Utopia (32699067) who frequently had 47 minutes (or occasionally 46) in non-garbage time games despite all the other stuff being correct, and the guy coming in to replace him was not significantly better by any stretch, but his stamina was just so low



Last edited by Lemonshine at 8/15/2015 4:17:03 PM

This Post:
00
272865.57 in reply to 272865.56
Date: 8/15/2015 6:41:29 PM
The LA Lions
NBBA
Overall Posts Rated:
200200

I know exactly what garbage time means in real life...there might be a possibility you slightly misunderstood what was being discussed (i.e. not garbage time itself, but why trainees sometimes cannot finish games and getting 48+ minutes).


My mistake.

I was looking (obviously not closely enough) at the discussion in the context of the OP not understanding why his player got subbed even though he was listed as starter, backup, and reserve. I didn't see anything wrong with SCCavsfan's initial post in its entirety, but I didn't see the misinformation angle of Phyr's comments about SCCavsfan's opening statement since blowouts lead to GT and GT means starters being replaced with available non-starters. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

I also went back and looked and I had an awful stamina guy pulled in the 48th minute of a 131-66 LI/M2M win for another starter.

I'll just go back to lurking now.

This Post:
00
272865.58 in reply to 272865.57
Date: 8/15/2015 7:16:21 PM
Overall Posts Rated:
14901490
No worries, I hope I didn't offend you and you keep participating. I think it's always positive when new guys intervene in a discussion.

From: Chekreyes

To: Phyr
This Post:
00
272865.59 in reply to 272865.20
Date: 8/18/2015 9:48:40 PM
Overall Posts Rated:
926926

47 Minutes = 90%
46 Minutes = 81%
45 Minutes = 72%
44 Minutes = 65%
43 Minutes = 58%

Do you have anything like this for Single Position vs. Double Position??

From: Phyr

This Post:
00
272865.60 in reply to 272865.59
Date: 8/18/2015 10:09:50 PM
Overall Posts Rated:
654654
Should be the same.

From: Chekreyes

To: Phyr
This Post:
00
272865.61 in reply to 272865.60
Date: 8/18/2015 10:46:12 PM
Overall Posts Rated:
926926
I mean more in terms of...

1 pos - 100%
2 pos - ... 90%?
3 pos - ...70%?

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