BuzzerBeater Forums

The major flaw in your argument is that the quality of teams has to stay consistent. It doesn't. You're right that with less managers it's only natural that the quality of players is going to drop as well, but that's not necessarily a bad thing. When BuzzerBeater was starting out and had only a few thousand people playing there obviously weren't top end players like we envision them today, but there were top end players relative to their time and the amount of people playing/training. I'm not saying that lower quality players and teams is a good thing either, but it's a non-factor as everyone is going to be on a level playing field regardless of the quality of players.

It worries me that a BB is saying something like this. I can't comprehend the kind of thinking that says its ok if the quality of players drops. I don't really care what Buzzerbeater was like when it was starting out. For one thing, I wasn't here, for another its a different situation entirely as presumably then the user base was rising and not falling. Don't tell me its stable now just because for a few weeks there's been a tiny rise. That's not statistically meaningful.

The idea that its a non factor because we're all in the same boat sounds nice, because we're taught to believe that, but its utter nonsense. A diminution of quality brings all teams closer together in quality, making random events more meaningful than they are now, and making luck a greater factor than skill or knowledge. Not especially something I'd be looking forward to thanks.

Lastly, and this is more of a general comment to everyone, I readily admit that the transfer market is not in a great place right now. I suspect something will need to be tweaked in order to quell the mass inflation.

Well, it took long enough to notice. Other people noticed it long ago, I'm sure some predicted it in advance. As far as we know Marin still thinks inflation is a good thing.

I understand the fact that game economics require a conservative approach, and that large changes are risky. But a tweak is not going to work. The decision to stop free agents over 60k salary was a huge mistake, and one that went against the conservative approach. It needs to be looked at again, before more of those players disappear from the game.

In addition, you really need to read Lemon's post again. Point 1 is on the mark.

Incidentally, if the quality of players falls, salaries fall, profits increase and (I know you can see what's coming here) inflation will increase.

but I think you'll be hard pressed to find a single professional basketball team in the entire world that drafted and developed even half of it's roster, let alone an entire team.

Well, maybe not in Canada or the USA but there are many examples (especially in the past) in Europe.

The major flaw in your argument is that the quality of teams has to stay consistent. It doesn't. You're right that with less managers it's only natural that the quality of players is going to drop as well, but that's not necessarily a bad thing.

So just to clarify: are you saying that you expect D1 teams to look more like D2 teams look like now, skill-wise? And how does that reconcile with the fact that you want to incentivise training (at least Marin does)? Do you want people to train players below their potential in order to make enough 'trained' BB players for everyone? Let's just be clear about this.

What you're saying is looks like this: managers should train with the current system, they will have a worse team than they had when they didn't have to train, but doing so they will be better off than others at their own level because the others will be even worse!

My point was to counter those who say that, if everybody trains, things will be just fine, as they have always been. I don't believe that for a second and neither do you, it seems.

As for teams not being able to field competitive home grown teams... well, yeah. I don't like to bring up the "realism card"

Realism is the last argument that should be used in this game. I think you misunderstood me. I did mention homegrown teams to prove the point that it's not possible to build a competitive team with just training, because training is too slow, too rigid, too limited. Yet Marin wants people to train. Without changing anything.

Again, let's spell it out for everyone. Given the current conditions, it's only natural that the average quality of teams will decrease, due to the conditions of the game and not due to how many people train (also it's worth noting that most people train anyway) . If this is understood and nothing is done, this must be considered acceptable and preferable to alternatives by the BB staff.

You're right that with less managers it's only natural that the quality of players is going to drop as well, but that's not necessarily a bad thing.

And here we are finally: I think you are kidding yourself if you think this is not going to have any consequence when users realise this is going to happen. They should just look at the transfer list anyway to understand it: they already pay much more for worse quality players than they would have been able to get in the past.

Last edited by Lemonshine at 3/18/2016 1:22:10 PM

So most likely those who want to compete wil keep certain players until they turn to grandpas. If you have 32 yo guy with TSP 120 (or corresponding TSP for D2, D3... level) at the moment, why sell him at all? For the money you will get, you can hardly buy a younger, already partly developed player who could get to same skills in 4-5 seasons... Better just keep that guy then until he is 36... And this situation won't help the market.

With these trends, where buying and selling soon will make not much sense for those who want to stay at the same level, we will quickly have either tankers or grandpa hoarders, but no trainers. And quite a few quitters, former grandpa owners without any substantial cash, who will see no way ahead for them.

More FAs would at least partly help this issue.

can't agree more. the current situation is corroding my love for this game. i am one to two players away from a promotion, and i have been looking through the market every day for half a year but find no reasonable deal. i know my top players can sell for 5-6 millions in today's market, but i have gone so far that i don't want to get into the rebuild mode. so what can i do except training while that 1-2 hole in the roster remains and my top players age and my money in the bank increases at a turtle rate?

BBs, plz, do something, either more FAs or delay skill drop age.

BBs, plz, do something, either more FAs or delay skill drop age.

Or faster/more flexible training or a combination of all of these. Now get your +1 ball.

BBs, plz, do something, either more FAs or delay skill drop age.

Or faster/more flexible training or a combination of all of these. Now get your +1 ball.

thx mate. I feel that BBs, GMs and LAs all are trying to convince others (or maybe even themselves) that the way the game is now is rational, but it's not, and I can't see it turning around unless they do some interference.

It's like politics. What matters is not what is correct and what is wrong, it's how people feel. and I can see no one feeling good right now. Some players may be happy now because they can sell players they bought about 1 year ago for 3 to 4 times of money, but then? Where do their teams go? Using that money to buy lower quality players as replacement and then sell the same players a few months later for double of the money? Someone plz tell me it's not the way to play this game now.

Last edited by The Worker at 3/21/2016 9:31:53 AM

BBs, plz, do something, either more FAs or delay skill drop age.

Or faster/more flexible training or a combination of all of these. Now get your +1 ball.

thx mate. I feel that BBs, GMs and LAs all are trying to convince others (or maybe even themselves) that the way the game is now is rational, but it's not, and I can't see it turning around unless they do some interference.

It's like politics. What matters is not what is correct and what is wrong, it's how people feel. and I can see no one feeling good right now. Some players may be happy now because they can sell players they bought about 1 year ago for 3 to 4 times of money, but then? Where do their teams go? Using that money to buy lower quality players as replacement and then sell the same players a few months later for double of the money? Someone plz tell me it's not the way to play this game now.

I would hope you don't count me in that group. I think I am pretty open in that I think there are some things that could definitely be improved, and I am extremely open in discussing proposed changes. There are things that I personally don't think I'd ever consider, namely any sort of "pay to win", any changes that remove meaningful choice from the game, or anything that removes the ability of managers to end up moving up (or down) the leagues based on their managerial ability rather than simply how long they've been in the game or how much time they spend on the site.

If it makes you feel better, some ten to fifteen seasons ago, everyone was miserable because they would spend hundreds of thousands of dollars over several seasons on staff wages training players, only to see their value drop tremendously, while people were able to pick up starters off the transfer list or free agency for almost nothing. I think we all would prefer a happy medium where prices are stable. How we get there, of course, is a matter of great debate and of course if it were as easy as BB-Marin decreeing it were so, I'm certain it would have happened.

In the end, it's a game, and part of the challenge is trying to adapt your strategies to what is happening and projecting what *will* happen. Those who do a better job of that will thrive, and those who don't likely won't.

BBs, plz, do something, either more FAs or delay skill drop age.

Or faster/more flexible training or a combination of all of these. Now get your +1 ball.

thx mate. I feel that BBs, GMs and LAs all are trying to convince others (or maybe even themselves) that the way the game is now is rational, but it's not, and I can't see it turning around unless they do some interference.

You're right, obviously. So right that a GM felt the need to come on and blow smoke at you. You hit too close to home for comfort!