BuzzerBeater Forums

the greatest guy ever to play was Maravich.

Ummmm... from HS through to the NBA - the greatest is Kareem Abdul Jabbar.

Kareem is the third best big man of all time, I'll give you that.

Kareem is the third best big man of all time, I'll give you that.

THIRD best? How so?
6 Championships to go alongside 6 MVPs. 19 All Stars (back when it meant something). 10 NBA 1st teams, 6 2nd teams. RoY.
Most total points in NBA. 3rd most rebounds. 34th in Assists.
3 NCAA Championships. 3 NCAA Tournament MOPs. 3 All-American teams. 2 College PoY Awards.
Lead Power Memorial Academy to 3 straight NYC Catholic Ch'ships, 71 consecutive games won, and a 79-2 record whilst there.

Russell only played 13 years and he won 11 titles, was an all-star 12 times, and the MVP 5 times. They didn't record blocked shots when he played or he would be the all time leader. He is second all time in rebounds. He won two NCAA titles playing, not at UCLA, but at tiny unheard of USF. He was an Olympic gold medalist.

Wilt scored 100 in agame, averaged 50 ppg for an entire season (!), is the NBA all time leading rebounder, was 56-3 in high school, slept with 20k women, and so totally dominated the league that not one but two rule changes were made because of him. The first is that you can't go over the free throw line when shooting a FT because Wilt used to run and jump and drop it in the bucket. The second is that you can't score by shooting over the backboard because Wilt could jump up and drop it over the top of the glass into the hoop.

And while I loved Kareem and think he had the single most dominant shot ever, you have to admit the last three of his 18 (not 19) all-star appearances were not actually because of his on-court performance. He's the all time points leader, but he's also the all time minutes played leader, so that's understandable. He's also, by the way, the all time fouls leader.

"Greatest" player is obviously a subjective thing. Kareem was great. I think Wilt and Russell were better- one in team success and the other in individual prowess.

So... you should penalize Kareem for having longevity, and playing at a good school? That's a crock man...
They CHANGED THE RULES OF NCAA BASKETBALL to stop the impact Kareem did (no dunks allowed). And read about the "stall games"... terrible stuff!

I am not entirely sure on your info on Chamberlain... I have always read that Wilt would jump from behind the FT line and be close enough to have a very near shot. He didn't dunk it. Secondly, I have never ever heard of Wilt jumping and being able to drop the ball OVER the backboard. That would mean he's reaching about 15 feet high on his jumps.
Gonna call "myth" on that too.

And attributing Kareem's points total to mere longevity is pretty unfair too. He played for 20 years - that of itself is completely amazing, and should not be held against him - and scored an incredible 38,387 points.
To put that in perspective, Kobe Bryant - I'm sure we can agree he's a prolific scorer. He is now 7th on that list, and is in his 15th season. He has 27,344 points. More than 10,000 to go to catch Kareem!
You think he can do that in 5 years?

Russell never had the ability that Kareem had, and Wilt never had the drive. Kareem had both.

Last edited by malice at 3/4/2011 2:38:23 AM

I always have a tough time believing that these NBA stars from the 50s and 60s could excell today as they did then. The level of talent and athleticism in the game then compared to now is like apples and oranges. I honestly believe that if you put together an all star team from some point in the 60s and put them up against a team from today, the old timers would get embarrased. It's the old Babe Ruth debate. If hard drinking, hard partying, cigar smoking out of shape Ruth faced Halladay, Lee, Sabathia, Lincecum, etc....would he still be the legendary hitter he is considered to be?

I think many of these legendary players were great players who get better in tale as years go by.

Last edited by buzzerbeatme at 3/4/2011 3:17:29 AM

The other side of that argument has to be considered tho'.
And that is that those ol' timers would have the same benefits of advanced training that today's athlete has.

However, in general: I agree. As time goes by the tales get longer, I mean, there's no way some of that stuff about Wilt is true. I mean, there were probably only 19,975 women or so... and he merely exaggerated a bit.

Aaaaanyway...
Seeing as I've been waxing lyrical on Kareem, his training was considered to be ahead of his time. He actively trained both with weights and doing martial arts/yoga to keep himself supple. He meditated before every game to remove stress and outside distractions, and had his own chef prepare special meals for him, all with the aim of prolonging his health.
Worked pretty well.

Last edited by malice at 3/4/2011 3:48:32 AM

Woah there big boy. Relax. I never said he dunked it. I said dropped it in.

It created the offensive goal-tending rule; and it banned the inbound pass over the backboard, the dunk from the foul line in a free-throw attempt, and the "alley oop" (since made legal again). It also widened the three-second area.

That's from wikipedia, so it must be 100% true. And, while it says inbounds pass, it was also for field goal attempts.

You also are putting words into my mouth about Kareem. I never said he should be punished for anything. But clearly it was easier to win three straight NCAA titles at UCLA with John Wooden than it would have been for him to do so at USF. And clearly his total points record is as much a reflection of his amazing longevity as it is his scoring prowess (16th all time ppg). Much like his most fouls record is a reflection of his longevity and not his Laimbeerness.

To say Wilt never had "the drive" is just foolishness. And while Russell might not have had the talent as a scorer, he was a better athlete, defender, and shot blocker than Kareem ever hoped to be.

Last edited by somdetsfinest at 3/4/2011 11:00:15 AM

The other side of that argument has to be considered tho'.
And that is that those ol' timers would have the same benefits of advanced training that today's athlete has.

However, in general: I agree. As time goes by the tales get longer, I mean, there's no way some of that stuff about Wilt is true. I mean, there were probably only 19,975 women or so... and he merely exaggerated a bit.

Aaaaanyway...
Seeing as I've been waxing lyrical on Kareem, his training was considered to be ahead of his time. He actively trained both with weights and doing martial arts/yoga to keep himself supple. He meditated before every game to remove stress and outside distractions, and had his own chef prepare special meals for him, all with the aim of prolonging his health.
Worked pretty well.

Plus, he was great in the movie Airplane!

Woah there big boy. Relax. I never said he dunked it. I said dropped it in.

Completely relaxed! Just don't agree with you... at least, not completely. The caps were for emphasis (I wasn't yelling!). Sorry for any misunderstanding.
But perhaps you could chill a bit with the use of words like "foolishness" chief? I don't really like the implications there.

But anyway...
(haha... wiki - I get you!)
An "inbound pass from over the backboard" when applying as a shot wouldn't necessary mean a shot from directly above the backboard - it's generally applied as a simple shot (well... relative on the 'simple'!). The ability to do that would be inhuman. The top of a backboard is 13ft. Now, I've heard of guys touching the top of the backboard, but to be able to get a ball over the top of it would mean at least 15 ft. More, if you want to be able to actually see where you're shooting - as backboards weren't glass in those days.
And doing this would result in the very least some anecdotal evidence... and I've been able to find none.

Hehe... you're now putting words in my mouth! I didn't say "punish", I said "penalized" - and I was referring to your point on Kareem's longevity being the reason for his points total. Basically, I think that's unfair. As I pointed out, guy was a prolific scorer. To simply attribute it to longevity is unfair. Completely so. Actually... same with the fouls. Quite a few stories I've read on Kareem state that he was indeed a very physical player.
But no harm, no foul ('scuse the pun!).

On schools - I really think that it was irrelevant where Kareem played. You don't think he would have been the dominant player he was at a different school?

Saying Wilt never had the drive is foolishness? But I didn't say he didn't have drive, he just didn't have the drive that Kareem or Russell did. And that's true.
And to declare Russell a better athlete? On what basis? That's just as unfounded as... me declaring Kareem to have the better ability. Scoring-wise, true. But Russell's the superior defender.

Okay. Points taken, and I apologize for offending you with my vocabulary.
I say Russell was a better athlete because he ran a 49.6 440 and high jumped 6'9". I know all about Kareem's martial arts acumen, but I think Russell was a better all-round athlete.