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Player Skills

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1357.6 in reply to 1357.5
Date: 10/1/2007 5:45:40 AM
Overall Posts Rated:
1616
If you REALLY think every skills is just as important then tell me if you would trade a guy that has Prolific inside shot, Prolific inside defense and Prolific rebouding for a guy that has Prolific jump shot, Prolific driving, Prolific range and ATROCIOUS outside defense and ATROCIOUS passing?

Of course not.

Bottom line is, I understand the idea behind this "secondaries requirement", I think it was a good effort, but now I am completely AGAINST IT.

Another argument to it is that we have way to many skills and if you want to have a legendary player you can't be training him on 3 skills.

And another argument is that in real life is easier to have a player alienated then a complete one.

And another argument is that the user should havce the freedom to choose if he wants to make his player a complete overall player or a specialist in one thing. Without any punishments for doing so.

Anyway, I know the training system won't be changed, so i wont even waste my time anymore. I just wanted to raise the heads up for the non-fairness of this requirement between inside/outside players. If nothing is done to prevent this, I will sell my awesome guard trainees, change my training to "Inside everything", and recommend everyone on BB to do the same.


This Post:
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1357.7 in reply to 1357.6
Date: 10/1/2007 2:27:34 PM
Overall Posts Rated:
00
Are you having a bad day, Raonne? I've never seen you this fired up.

I see what you're saying, but I'll take a different tact on it. You could argue that outside players need 6 skills (jump shot, jump range, driving, passing, handling, and outside D) while inside guys only need 4 (inside shot, inside D, rebounding, and shot blocking) so that the teams who focus on training inside guys are going to have better skilled players than those who train outside guys.

This could lead to an inbalance in the game engine, but I would imagine that would be corrected by the market, with high-level guards will be more valuable, since they'll be harder to make. However, as I think we've seen with HT, letting the economic market correct for an error in the development of the game is a very bad idea, since when the two become intertwined from the start, the downfall of both is much more likely.

I think the more elegant solution is to:

1. Either make driving/passing as valuable for inside guys as it is for outside guys (maybe it already is, I don't know! BBs?) so everyone needs to have 6 skills to be extremely well-rounded.

2. Or, make the outside skills train faster than the inside skills, since there are more of them. I'm already a little disconcerted by the inside training speeds, since I hear rebounding is one of the fastest skills to train, and it's also one of the most important.

One last thing:

And another argument is that the user should havce the freedom to choose if he wants to make his player a complete overall player or a specialist in one thing. Without any punishments for doing so.


I think we can all agree that giving the user freedom to build players however they like (without penalties for just having guys with one skill) will result in a game that's far less intriguing than BB has the potential to be.

This Post:
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1357.8 in reply to 1357.6
Date: 10/1/2007 2:31:48 PM
Overall Posts Rated:
303303
If you REALLY think every skills is just as important then tell me if you would trade a guy that has Prolific inside shot, Prolific inside defense and Prolific rebouding for a guy that has Prolific jump shot, Prolific driving, Prolific range and ATROCIOUS outside defense and ATROCIOUS passing?


Depends on how long it takes for outside skills to pop compared to inside skills.

SInce there's more outside skills, I believe the rate of training is increased somewhat for the outside skills.

This would make it so that outside players develop around the same rate as inside players.

Another argument to it is that we have way to many skills and if you want to have a legendary player you can't be training him on 3 skills.


As it stands, the only real way to get a legendary player is to train him in several skills. Eventually training a single skill will slow down a player's training.

And another argument is that the user should havce the freedom to choose if he wants to make his player a complete overall player or a specialist in one thing. Without any punishments for doing so.


One of the key points of BB training is to avoid having a bunch of single-skilled monoliths like you see in HT.

Here's an example of why single-skill training should not work long term:

The Chicago Bulls of the Jordan era had quite the collection of talent, but if players who only did one thing really well were the stars, we'd be talking about the Kerr Era or the Paxson Era. A player like Steve Kerr or John Paxson are nice to have to be able to hit a three when you need it, but to build around those types of players are a recipe for disaster in the pros, and should be a recipe for disaster here.

A player like Michael Jordan or Larry Bird did many things well, and that's what made them legends of the game.

"Requiring" multi-skill training for long-term success will ensure that the health of the economy will stay at the proper levels, and will make for a tactically diverse game overall.

NO ONE at this table ordered a rum & Coke
Charles: Penn has some good people
A CT? Really?
Any two will do
Any three for me
Any four will score
Any five are live
This Post:
00
1357.9 in reply to 1357.8
Date: 10/1/2007 4:59:51 PM
Overall Posts Rated:
1616
I agree with all of this, but my point still stands. All of that is actually an argument in favor of what I'm saying.

The way things are, trainers of JS+Drive+JR will have alienated shooters, while inside trainers will have complete players. And saying that the complete players are better, and better to build a team around is obvious, it's my whole point.

This Post:
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1357.10 in reply to 1357.9
Date: 10/1/2007 5:01:27 PM
Overall Posts Rated:
1616
Are you having a bad day, Raonne?

My day has been very nice so far. How is yours?

This Post:
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1357.11 in reply to 1357.9
Date: 10/1/2007 5:13:23 PM
Overall Posts Rated:
303303
The way things are, trainers of JS+Drive+JR will have alienated shooters


What do you mean by "alienated"?

In the USA, that word usually means pissed off, I just want to make sure we're on the same page as far as what you are saying.

Also, if the outside skills train more quickly, then inside and outside players would develop at the same right, except that the outside players would have a bit more diverse skills.

NO ONE at this table ordered a rum & Coke
Charles: Penn has some good people
A CT? Really?
Any two will do
Any three for me
Any four will score
Any five are live
This Post:
00
1357.12 in reply to 1357.11
Date: 10/1/2007 5:27:59 PM
Overall Posts Rated:
2121
By alienated I think he means the players won't fit into the team because they wont have team benefiting skills like passing and outside defense.

I think if outside skills are training at a faster speed then inside skills then it is possibly balanced.

What we don't know is the details of the combinations. People need to do some research on all of this before we start re-inventing the system. OR the BBs explain it without giving away the secrets.

Creator of (http://www.buzzerbeaterstats.com) and (http://www.buzzerbeaternews.com/) -- Ex GM of Australia -- Division 1 winner of Italy Season 1 then moved team to Australia after the country was created by the BBs. Australian team manager for 2 seasons. Won various tournaments and division 1 titles in the following seasons.
This Post:
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1357.13 in reply to 1357.12
Date: 10/1/2007 5:34:38 PM
Overall Posts Rated:
1616
Ok, I think I got a "false cognate" here. I meant "alienado", but aparentely in english "alienated" is not the right word. What I meant was "a person (player) that can only do 1 thing". As an opposite to "complete player".

Just like you, I think complete players are better then an "alienado" player :D

That's why i'm concerned about the JS training. But if goes much faster then Inside skills, then I guess it would be ok. But I'm sure it doesn't, because I train JS in optimal conditions on my main guards, and they train the same or even slower then some inside training, cause my brother trains inside players and we follow our training in details together. I guided him into setting up a inside training kinda like yours.

This Post:
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1357.14 in reply to 1357.13
Date: 10/1/2007 7:05:18 PM
Overall Posts Rated:
00
Wasn't try to call you out, just calm you down, you seemed pretty fired up before. Anyways...

In a previous post you mention driving being a key skill for guards, is that pretty standard thought? I've been considering it on the same level with passing, more of a "nice to have" than a "need to have".

I totally agree that there should be some sort of balance to training speeds if guards need 6 skills to be considered complete and inside guys only need 4. The question is, do guards really "need" 6 skills, or can they get by without the driving and passing?

This Post:
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1357.15 in reply to 1357.14
Date: 10/1/2007 8:22:27 PM
Overall Posts Rated:
1616
I also didn't consider Driving as a skill of primary importance. For me the top three for guards would be JS, Outside D, and Pass. Handling would come in a close 4th. But I guess other people may think differentely.

Anyway, the Jump SHot training considers Driving and Jump range as the secondaries required for you not to have a slow training, and that is the problem. If you rotate training on those 3 skills, you will have just a shooter, while rotating Inside shot, inside def and rebounding you will have a complete player.

That was my complaint all along. If the dependencies of Jump SHot were Outside Def and Passing then it would be better.

But the truth is that I don't like this dependencies. I don't buy the excuses given to say that Inside Shot training can give you pops in Inside Defense (and vice-versa). I think offensive training is one thing and defensive is another.

Edited 10/1/2007 8:26:14 PM by GM-Raonne

This Post:
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1357.16 in reply to 1357.15
Date: 10/1/2007 8:37:11 PM
Overall Posts Rated:
00
You count jump range below driving?

I didn't realize the dependencies were training-based, I assumed they were skill-based. For instance, I thought that no matter what I trained (jump shot, outside scoring, one on one) that the same 6 (or 4 for inside guys) were being taken into account to see how much training my guys received. I didn't think that different trainings had different dependencies built into them? How do you know this, by the way? Just assuming since driving and jump range also pop when training jump shot?

If it's training-based, then why not pick a training like outside scoring that trains more skills (I believe it does, anyway) than one like jump shot that does fewer skills?

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