BuzzerBeater Forums

1. you can't name it DAY-TRAYDING. It's more or less whole-season trading. Day-trading was completely eliminated by high taxes after buying player.

2. Most of all you can't name it CHEATING. We use market rule of SUPPLY and DEMAND. We buy when supply is the biggest and sell when supply is almost 0, but still is demand (e.g. try to buy appriopriate player to train in the middle of season). Believe me, exist many users, who can't afford to be on TL in time of the biggest SUPPLY of youngsters (it's in fact one day) or user, who change strategy of team management in the middle of season. So DEMAND actually exist per whole season (not only newbies buy youngsters then).

By the way: Who train youngester from 0? Rather not top teams. So don't be surprise than teams from 3rd or 4th division buy youngsters from us because generally youngsters are mostly bought by 3rd/4th division teams.

E.g. apples (but not only) in time of picking them (in season) are the cheapest. Later on you need to pay more because price includes cost of storing etc. We also pay cost of storing players (theirs salaries+taxes) and we take all financial risks connected with this. We spend our time to buy, announce and sell them. I mean that in selling price are also our costs, what you don't count as I guess.

More and more users see profits in youngsters trayding, so competition is bigger and bigger and is more diffcult to make money on this. So, the market regulates it itself (market don't need your hand regulations). Youngsters are availble on market for whole season (we maintain supply for users demands). Draft gives a bit more profits for users because we increase demand and prices. What's wrong with this in fact?

By the way: in most cases players in time of selling are better than in day of buying. They get e.g. stamina training (users, who train players know how much time take stamina training) + e.g. improvements from gym effect.

Where you see cheating here?

3.

These players worth nothing,

Alonso, you are wrong...and probably this is the main reason why you have problem with this. I don't know why you claim this...maybe you simply aren't concious what gym lvl3 + good trainer (even not top) can make from such players (19yo, hof). Believe me, reaching TSP 150-160 (so NT level) is possible. I had player in NT, who started training as a 19yo player by trainers lvl5 and later even lvl4 +gym lvl3 and reached TSP 155 (could even more, but potential's limit stopped him).

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Why is it so popular in Poland?

We have very competitive league (quite symbolic is that was easier for me to win B3 than Polish league), so to survive on the top we need to look for additional incomes (usually B3 champions won eveything in theirs countries in the same season). This competitiveness of league also force us to build cheap, but strong (so not obvious) rosters. Anyway, possibilities are limited, because possibilities to earn money in BB are generally very limited.

Look, what possibilities on earn money we actually have in BB now?
1. The best: tanking. (boring and discouraging to play)
2. Far, far behind in beaing profitable: winning...but if you play in very competitive league, even if you have very strong team it's very difficult to win everything (BB don't enable to build wide and competetive rosters) so you need to focus on main target (to not lose league and cup) and incomes are limited then (lack of win in league costs around 600k per seaons, a Cup - next around 600k).

What's more? Actually, nothing.
3. Earning money on TL is almost completely eliminated by very high taxes (only youngsters tradying left, but earning on this it's not simple currently too).
4. Earning money on training: very difficult/not possible (especially if you want to win titles in the same time).
5. Draft lottery: a joke in top divisions.


Last edited by kozlik4 at 5/11/2022 4:42:10 AM

I completely agree with everything you posted.

Maybe I've missed a lot of posts in this thread and I apologize if this has been asked before but still:

1) Who decides what is the "fair" value of a player? If it is the current algorithm that shows price estimations - it completely sucks, we all know that. A player who has 18+ in HN/DV and 4 OD is worth very little to someone who plans to train 1v1 for a season or two but then again - he is worth a lot more to someone who plans to train OD... Player value is very much subjective and depends on too many factors. No person or algorithm can decide what it is single-handedly.

2) What happens if I bought a player for 6k and later on sell him for 70k? Well, that's like x12. Will I be punished for making 30k profit, possibly?

3) Is there a difference between making 100-200k profit via listing the player for this particular amount and getting just one bid or listing him for 1 and getting the same price after a bid war? To me - mostly not. What matters is that there was one person willing to pay the end price.

4) How would you determine if the player was trained (improved) during his brief period with the "day-trader"? 'Cause if he was - it is quite natural to want more money or at least a return on investment for him...

5) How would you make the distinction between buying a player cheap and then selling him for fair price and buying the player for fair market value and selling him too expensively? And if you don't plan to make that distinction, how in the world is the first one cheating?

6) Just a practical example: If there are two different stores in town selling the same bread, one for 0.75c and the other for 2.5$ - would the IRS go ahead and tax the second store because I bought my bread from them???

...Like I said to others, retaining new users and increasing the number of BB users is a main goal for BB. We can't allow this brutal rip off to happen....

New users, in my experience, tend to follow almost blindly the Transfer Price Estimate (when available) and as I said it is cr@p... big time!

You would do them a much bigger favor by fixing this and making it work well and for all players, not just some. And by doing so, you would not harm smart managers, using market economy supply/demand logic for a little (honest and well deserved) extra profit. I'm happy to help with the coding part btw.

If this starts working properly, then you could, for instance, display some red warning message (which could be disabled for experienced managers via the Preferences) for players deemed to be overpriced, like "BB tools have determined that this player's asking price could be too high. Proceed carefully if you plan to purchase him!"

Last edited by mink0ff at 5/11/2022 10:35:40 AM

Mate, come on... Like you've never seen those. They are totally screwed.

I dunno what you have checked but 18 yo HoFs with 55+ TSP (1-2 RB) were deemed to be worth 200-300k a couple of weeks ago. I bought several of those for this kind of money. Sahand bought pretty much the same players for 1.5-2.5 million. The tr. price estimate is way more impactful for new managers than some 50-100k DT profit made on their behalf. Especially since you will not reimburse them (I presume) with the amount taken from the "day-trader".

The algorithm for developed players says more than 85 outside TSP as the ceiling. We have 120 outside TSP players nowadays... There's a huge difference not taken into account by any means. And that's the smallest problem. How is "outside" TSP even relevant? Is OD worth as much as JR/HN?? How is "inside" TSP relevant, especially for guards? Is IS/ID worth as much as RB/SB for them?

This thing needs a complete overhaul. Period.

Edit: One more important thing to add: The current algorithm doesn't take into account what part of the season we are currently in at all. Which is tremendously important for younger players. This is the key reason behind the transfer estimates being wildly inaccurate for fresh draftees (as it compares them to the skill-sets of recently sold players (who are now 19, not 18 for example) and it harms newer managers mostly.

Last edited by mink0ff at 5/11/2022 10:51:10 AM

Im just saying, that for our subject right here - it works, and it doesn't help at all.

I can agree to that.

Fact Check: You did it yourself with (50770361). Bought for 30k, sold for 400k after 10 days.

Oh gush....Alonso, with all respect to you. Leave financials, please. You completely don't understand how economy behaves.

Does that mean his worth is 400k in the moment of sale? No..his worth is 10k at best.

Yes, he is worth 400k in the moment of sale. You know why? I explain you. Because, I'm not a charity, but I try to make bussiness. This price include my costs: 49% of taxes (abolish taxes then price will be 49% lower) and cost of storing (around 40k per week for 9 youngsters) + my cost of gym (15k per week, and cost of building). He was worth 30k in time when supply in youngster was the biggest on the market. You had also possibility to buy him as everybody. Why he should be worth 10k now, when is lack of perspective youngsters on the market? Could you explain me? Oh, well. I understand: Probably you expect I should sell player below my costs because you want to keep new users? I'm afraid you will faster lose current users than acguire new ones doing such changes;-)

First of all, player is worth as much as somebody want to pay for hiim and it's not cheating...until two teams aren't in collusion. I'm not a cheater. I simply try to do fair business, while you called me cheater because you don't understand a basis of economy. Believe me or not as you wish (you can check it, if you want): I haven't any connections with buying teams. Furthermore, this team (50770361) isn't newbie. He has played since 38 season.

By the way: Do you think top trainers are worth 3 millions? Is it fair price? I think you should do something with this.

First of all, player is worth as much as somebody want to pay for hiim and it's not cheating...until two teams aren't in collusion. I'm not a cheater. I simply try to do fair business...

That.

After looking at Poland's D1 transfer list as well as some other teams that engage in this behavior, I think your only real argument for doing this is that you are smarter when it comes to what a player is worth than other users and are taking advantage of their lack of knowledge of what similar players are selling for on the market. Personally, I don't think this is very healthy for the game or for new users.

I've found the type of transfers that I believe they are targeting and these are not the case of a player increasing in value from training or selling at a hot time on the market. They are buying high potential prospects without great skills for their age (so they buy cheap) and then listing them at a much higher price until finally an inexperienced team buys them not knowing they can get better players for much cheaper.

So if you are going to argue in favor of this, then tell it for what it is. You're taking advantage of less knowledgeable teams who don't understand the value of a player like you do. Your explanation for the cost of keeping the player is pretty ridiculous and I think you know that since you apparently factored in storing 8 other youngsters as the price of holding that one player.