BuzzerBeater Forums

I have respect for the full range of opinions here.

I do caution against using the Bible as the only source of how we are to carry ourselves, unless you follow all of the 613 commandments laid out in the Torah (Old Testament) alone:

http://m.chabad.org/m/article_cdo/aid/756399

I ask, in all honesty, if this one commandment about homosexuality is so important, why are so many others in here not considered equally important? Why is it not an affront to God that you shave with a razor (#69), or get a tattoo (#72) or to rest on the seventh day (#87), or not to eat fruit of a tree in its first three years (#200) or fail to take a ritual bath every time you ejaculate (#460), or not to insult or harm anybody with words (#501)?

I am Jewish, but not Orthodox. There are people in my broader community who try to follow every commandment, believing they cannot choose the ones they don't follow. As much as I find it extreme, I respect the consistency.

I find it troubling that people will so casually trample over some of the 10 Commandments while waving the Bible around to say "God hates fags." If you read it, He doesn't like a lot of things. And he doesn't say that some of them are OK to break.

Last edited by redcped at 5/1/2013 11:35:26 AM

I know I have said this before but I won't post anymore. I cannot respond to someone of Jewish heritage without this going horribly wrong being that we are talking about the bible (Torah). Though deeply saddened at the blockade on display.

Bye

Ironically I grew up in Reform Judaism (basically a way for a bunch of agnostic or borderline agnostic people to get together and maintain a community) and we barely learned anything about the Old Testament (Torah). I'm assuming this is because of all of the harsh punishments and ridiculous commandments that have nothing to do with life in the 20th/21st century, especially for a community (Reform Jews) who are disproportionately liberal on social issues. Fortunately this means that, at least for me, Jason Collins' announcement does not change how I view him and does not strike me as a big deal, at least with regard to my world view. As we've seen, however, it clearly is relevant to society as many people are uncomfortable or "morally" opposed to homosexuality. At first I thought his coming out was a big deal, then for a few minutes I just assumed that the vast majority of people would be fine with it, but after reading through these posts it's clear that it really is a big deal so even though he's not a very good player, he's relevant.

I don't post the USA forums much, but a lot of you have probably seen me around the forums, and noticed that I have a bible verse in my signature. And since this discussion has turned towards scripture, as homosexuality and abortion debates often do, I thought I'd at least throw in my two cents, and I'll try my best to keep it pretty brief.

First, everything I say is based on the fact that the bible is the ultimate authority in my life. That means where I find my truth, my guidance, my leadership, and thankfully my salvation is found in the Word of God (which is what I believe the Bible is). If you disagree with me, or are offended by what the Bible says, please feel free to bbmail me as I'd love to have an open dialogue about it.

So, based on this debate. Do I believe homosexuality is a sin? Yes, I do. However, there is also no sin that outweighs another. In fact, based on what I know about myself, I would consider myself a greater sinner than anyone I know, and certainly Jason Collins. In 1 Timothy, the Apostle Paul calls himself the "foremost" of sinners. This is what any Christian should consider them self, which is where so many in the Church have failed, and specifically in the case of homosexuality.

Jesus said the most important commandment is to love God before all else. Number two is to love your neighbor as yourself. I don't care if your neighbor is Jewish, atheist, Christian, Muslim, or a homosexual NBA player. We're called to first love our God and Creator, and second to love those around us.

So, Christians, stop attacking Jason Collins and the gay community. Whether they shout from the top of a mountain that they're gay and proud of it or whether they all change their lifestyles and turn Jesus when you say they should does not change the fact that we live in a broken world. Even if there were zero homosexuals we would all need a Savior because of the countless other ways we fall short of the glory of God.

My sadness based on this situation, our culture, and this thread really has nothing to do with Jason Collins, or even the rise of homosexuality in our culture. It is simply another small sign that our culture is turning it's back on their Creator, and Savior.

I hope this hasn't offended anyone. And I'm serious about bbmailing me personally. I'm passionate about my faith, and would love to talk more about why.

Last edited by natellio at 5/1/2013 12:44:47 PM

Since we are looking to millennial old religious texts for guidance on this topic let me quote one:

“Even a wise person acts according to his own nature; all living entities are controlled by their own natures. What will repression accomplish?”

Bhagavad Gita Chapter 3, Verse 33

You couldn't find a good Kama Sutra quote? I bet Jason Collins has read it.

Teehee, I get it cuz Bhagavad Gita and Kama Sutra are similar cuz they are from Indian culture right? Joke that Collins read it was a good one too

Yeah, I just can't tell if you're being sarcastic!

You are correct, your relationship with your wife is more than just about the act of sex...and a gay person should feel free to love who they want....and I don't look at your relationship with your wife as courageous, or anything that should be put on a pedestal, just like gay people in love shouldn't be either. Who people love shouldn't matter to the next person....but with this issue, and the sympathetic nature that has come from it, like Fewmit said, a changing view on homosexuality, the media and others are now esteeming them for declaring this aspect of their lives.

Heaven help me for jumping into this thread when there are still pages of unread posts, but I think the point here needs to be raised. For all the angst over gay people coming out, let's not forget that while as a straight man of little import to the world at large, I'll never have a press conference announcing my sexuality, every time I go out somewhere with my wife, that's pretty much announcing my sexuality to the world. The mere act of bringing a significant other to a party or a church or for dinner or anything else is a very small deal indeed for heterosexuals, but the fact that it is such a huge deal for someone to even let it be known that they are homosexual shows there's still a long way to go. I imagine that homosexuals and heterosexuals alike would love a world where the concept of coming out wasn't relevant - you love who you love, and nobody looks the other way. And if we were in that world, it would be a wonderful thing. But you know and I know that if an athlete were to bring his boyfriend out to dinner on Valentines' Day or get tickets for his partner to sit with the WAGs or even attempt to marry someone for love rather than to be on a reality show, it would be just as big a circus as "coming out" but would replace the dignity of controlling the admission with the notoriety of being "outed".

Unfortunately, we're still a country of prefixes. We're not Americans, not men or women - if you're black, you're an "African American", if you're homosexual, you're a "gay man" or a "lesbian woman", and if you believe in Allah you're a "Muslim American" (or "Islamist"). Hopefully when my son grows up and have kids, he'll be able to talk about how stupid his father's generation was in putting so much emphasis on the words that categorize a man or woman and so little on the man or woman themselves.

Wow, and then after reading there was a major religious tangent.

My God is a God of love. He loves sinners, because honestly without us, who's left? I'm just not sure that I ever remember Jesus shunning men frolicking in a bathhouse, or telling others to not love their neighbors even as He loves them. I do remember Him overturning the tables of the money changers, and strongly disapproving of usury.

Hey guys! Just wanted to jump in too! Anyway, concerning the people talking about following the commandments of the Old Testament, when Jesus died on the cross the Mosaic law was broken. The Mosaic law (OT law) was for people to understand their sin and recognize it, but now we have been given the Holy Spirit to live in us and convict us.

Also, I agree wholeheartedly with Nateillo and hrudley. God is a God of love, he loves all people but hates sin. It's not the people that we disagree with in themselves, it is the sin. I sin. Every single day of my life I fall short of the glory of God but the GRACE in that is He still loves me and wants a relationship with me.

I don't think it is wrong for a man to love another man. Paul and Timothy, for example, loved each other deeply and it was brotherly and real. What I think is sin is the homosexual acts when lustful impulses take over in a person. Some people struggle with those impulses, and some people openly relish in them. It's just like any other struggle one may have with alcohol, lust with a woman, etc. Each sin is sin and none is greater than the other.