BuzzerBeater Forums

yes, the België - Belgium discussion (well it actually wasn't even a discussion after all) has been a while ago now. Charles says a year, but it has been longer. The actual change from België to Belgium for the country-name, might have been around the time Charles remembers, but the discussion and agreed result had taken place long before that.

some history
At a certain time someone brought up the issue, and I admit I didn't even had noticed it until that time, possibly because I am Flemish and België didn't look odd to me. Once this issue was brought up, and realisation came to me, the discussion ended even before it began. A vast majority agreed to opt for Belgian's English name Belgium, as there are indeed 3 National languages, and it was imposiible to choose one of them, whitout kicking someone's legs. The few that brought up the fact there where more Flemish speaking users, and so it should stay belgië where quickly called to stop those arguments.
I also recall some Frenchman trying to join in and trow some oil in the fire by making some very false accusations in the other direction, but by giving facts that attempt to create mayhem was also very short lived.

I am glad to feel that the majority of BB users, both Flemish and French alike are very cooperative to enjoy the game together. (sorry if there are German speaking as well, but I have not seen them in the forums so far, so please speak up if you are around, we would like to get to know you guys).
In my history, I only came acros 2 people who would like to pull BB to the Flemish side, and 1 the other way, and that 1 was even a Frenchman who had no business with it at all.

I also understand it's frustrating to get "the other language" when you open a site. When I open facebook for example, it's all in French, I have no idea how they choose it that way, it's the only site that does it here. And it's realy anoying. So making a remark about it doesn't even mean you don't like the other side of Belgium (if I can put it this way), it's just a normal remark.

So the België - Belgium issue was finally resolved, after the expected and rightfull nagging every so often after we all agreed it should be Belgium, and it still wasn't changed.
But it seems there is an other bothersome fact.

I can follow Charles' reasoning. Just take the biggest number, so it works best for the majority. However, I think it just doesn't work that way. I'm not sure for other countries that have more then 1 official language, but for Belgium I can say that the choice made, even though it is theorethically correct, in reality doesn't work to well.
60% just is not enough to justify a choice, but to know this, one need to know the feel of the locals. Instead of explaining why, I'm just going to cut it short, and give the solution which I think works best:
if possible, go by area, and only use French, or Flemish for those areas that are located totally in the right language. For area's that have both French and Flemish speaking people, choose English.
If not possible, opt for English for the entire area of Belgium. 59% is just 1 % less then 60%, but for other reasons, this works best. BB originally is in English, and it will be acceptable for way over 60% to get the page in English (especially when they can click a laguage right away on that page), while opening a page that has "the other = wrong" language, will not be acceptable for many people.

An other option would be to work with an extra page for the Belgian region. If someone in Belgium opens www.buzzerbeater.com, they first get a page in which they choose their language English, Flemish, French or German (alphabetically ordered), and a cookie remembers it after they have visited it for the first time, just like it doesn now when a language is set in BB.

Hope this helps.

hm, so if I understand correctly, the problem will solve itself over time. ;)

no seriously. After the "discussion" about België - Belgium, it is my feel that English is acceptable to most Belgian BB-users at this time.
The statistics you look at might be correct, but I'm not sure if they take into account age.
We have a lot of old population here, which unfortunatly I doubt there will be many amongst them that are interested in the game. If you look at second languages I think (I might be wrong) that most of those would be in the upper age-class, while the public that has most chance of being interested in the game will most likely have English as second language.

I estimate over 90% of the targetted people will be like this: either Flemish or French as first language - English as second. Some of those might also have Dutch or French as third language.

It's your call ofcourse. I just want to give you my impression.

It might be politically sensitive, as you say, and to some, this will indeed be the case. But even to the ones it isn't the case, English is neutral, while opting for 1 of the 3 National languages isn't neutral. I'm not sure if you can call it political, but they might feel BBs are favouring a part of Belgium.
So we have 2 diffrent things here:
1: how many people understand the page. And then it MIGHT be possible either French or Flemich might win, but I'm not even sure of that, if we only take into consideration the group of people which might be interested in the game.
but:
2: how does the chosen language make the users feel? And I think this has a bigger impact on the eventual decision wheter to play it or not. And then I believe it's best to opt for a neutral language, favouring none. (which is also the reason why België was changed to Belgium).

Maybe you could make a survey for Belgian users about this. Have them rank 4 languages in order of acceptance, or what they would like most (English, Flemish, French and German). I predict most will be selfish and set their mothertongue on the No 1 spot, but I'm prety confident that English will be on the No 2 spot for over 90%.

I have been extremely impressed by this discussion.

in which way? maybe I can correct something that you might have wrongfully filtered out of it. ;)
Or confirm what you think...

It's always good to get feedback.

Well, I think it's really constructive. Explanations for why things were done are clear, suggestions for different ways of looking at things are objective without unnecessary criticism, suggestions are made without complaints but with only a desire on all parts to do the right thing, and it looks like an adequate conclusion that can be acted on is near at hand. I'll also point out that a subject that has inherent political issues was discussed in extremely nonpolitical ways is demonstrative of the priorities here, that everyone is here because we are into basketball and that's a community that transcends all others. In all, very impressive.

thank you very much.

It shows that I'm doing what I'm supposed to do, without having to be someone else then I actually am.
Feedback like this is encouraging.

I agree with Lord of Doom, here.
I think the priority would be to make the site attractive for first time visitors. And I think English is the most sensible choice for that, since, for people who don't speak English, it's easy to find and click on the appropriate flag on the main page.
I understand the argument of the majority here, but favoring one language will also favor the growth of the Belgian community towards that same language.
I don't know of any major, country-wide Belgian Website that has a default language set to either language. Most will have a welcome page with the choice of language (including English) before you access the main site.

The thing with non-English speaking countries, I think, is that people are not discouraged by opening a website in English, since the internet is global, and if they don't speak it, they'll look for a language flag. If they come across a website in a language other than English, they assume that the website is not, globally popular, but rather popular only in the area where the language is spoken.

I admit that if stumble upon a website in Turkish, for example, I just close and try to find an English alternative on google.

If BB's default language was English, at least in Belgium, I think more first time visitors would realize it is a big, global thing, and there would be more people actually registering, in my opinion.

edit: oh, and the Belgian forums are still called BB-België and Non-BB België.

Last edited by Thelonious at 10/30/2010 6:35:59 PM