BuzzerBeater Forums

Some of the people who posted here above have repeatedly demonstrated they can hardly count, so I would just pay attention to smart advice instead. Read carefully what hrudey wrote, since he gave you most of the information you need to calculate on your own:
1) the 5th team plays no game (so receives no income) and pays half salary in the week following the last regular season game
2) relegation and playoffs gate receipts are shared 50/50 by the teams playing
3) (this is mine) the last regular season game is on Saturday (so the first 2 playoff/relegation games are in the same financial week)
4) (this is mine) the playoff/relegation games have higher attendance than normal regular season games. It is marginal, but it's there

Keeping all this in mind whether 5th is better than 6th or vice-versa depends on 3 main factors:
a) how your weekly economy page looks like (and especially how your gate receipts compare to your player's salary)
b) the arena of the team you play in the relegation series
c) whether the relegation series has 2 or 3 games

To make an example, with my own Utopia team (D3).
My avg attendance is 199k.
Salaries are 174k.
Merch+TV-Staff-Scouting=+74k

Now if I end up 5th I will pay -87k (half) salary +74k rest of the economy which is unaffected (i.e. -13k that week). If I do get 2 relegation games I will have +99k from my home game +87k from away game (assuming the opponent makes the league average 174k instead of my 199k) -174k salary +74k rest of the economy (i.e. +86k that week). So yes it may well be that ending 6th is significantly more profitable than ending 5th. If I have a third relegation game (the tiebreaker) during the following week I would end up with 99k+74k-174k=-1k while in a 5th position I'd get +74k. So even with 3 relegation games the numbers for my team suggest I'd be better off going 6th (+85k vs +63k over 2 weeks), but the benefits are much smaller.

The results may change if salary vs gate receipts is negative and if you play against a bot (because you get much less money from one of the 2 games). For people playing against humans with decent arenas and balanced salary/gates you'll find it's usually better to go 6th. Anyway, you should be easily able to calculate what the income would be if you throw both relegation games, depending on the opponent.

If you have a normal healthy economy and the projected opponent is not a bot, it will be better to end 6th and ensure the relegation series (win or lose) only lasts 2 games. Generally speaking ending 5th has similar (negative) financial consequences to not winning the first round of the playoffs (and therefore only receiving 50% of gates only once).

In your specific case I doubt the 6th placed team can catch you even if you lose all the remaining 6 games, so this is mostly a theoretical exercise. Between 5th and 4th (+losing the first game of the playoffs) it is usually a wash.


Last edited by Lemonshine at 10/5/2015 12:01:29 PM

I will just add that Lemonshine's analysis of the pure financial matters is excellent reading and guidance. The only addition I could see adding is that where you finish is supposed to have some effect on your fan base in the next season, presumably in season ticket holders and possibly in the fan survey. As that's not really quantifiable (well, at least the data hasn't been figured out yet) it's of course up to you to determine how much weight you want to put in that.

Yes, it's purely financial reasoning. I'd imagine that relegation vs 5th does have an impact on the "past season performance" part of the fan survey and ticket holders during the following season, especially if you decide to throw both relegation games (as you are possibly regarded as relegated team in that respect).

I would never advocate going 6th or 7th over 5th if you risk demoting. If you are guaranteed to save yourself, you do that rather than risking. However 5th vs 6th in many leagues is a very close affair and can be manipulated to some extent. Just need to pick carefully. As I said, I think that if you have no chance to upset the #1 seeded team in the playoffs 4th or 5th often provide similar income in the first playoff week.

Last edited by Lemonshine at 10/5/2015 12:16:21 PM

I think what wolph said holds some weight in the calculations as well. If you clinch at least the 5th seed but don't have a team that can make a playoff run, selling off your guys is possibility before the end of the season could be potentially lucrative.

I'm spending 350k in salary in DII..if I take my roster down to the salary floor of around 190k..thats +160k an economic update. You are also able to get the best price on your talent as teams are loading up for the playoffs. If you sell after your playoff or relegation series, you will have to sell at a lower. If you are conservative with your effort during the season, you can also potentially CT/normal your way into a playoff spot and gain some of that first round cash.

And you can't equally sell up if you end up 6th? You should really know better, than listening to people who can barely count, Phyr...

To continue with my example: the salary floor in Utopia III.1 is 83k.

If I drop 6th and sell everyone and lose (win) both relegation games I have:
+74k+99k+87k-83k=+177k

If I go 5th and sell everyone I have:
+74k-41k=+33k

As I said 6th is better than 5th for most profitable teams, in fact the more profitable you are the higher the incentive to go 6th. You should rather celebrate with me the irony that a self-proclaimed economy guru cannot even grasp such simple concepts or is too lazy to do some elementary calculations.

Last edited by Lemonshine at 10/6/2015 11:35:05 AM

Winning the relegation series after selling everyone is a big IF.

Who says you need to win? You just need to ensure you don't get a 3rd game, which, in the OP's case, should be extremely easy to control, be it losing both or winning both. He clearly stated from the beginning that teams in his league can't demote. Besides (see below) you're still better off with 6th and 3 relegation games than ending 5th even in the event of selling everyone.

It's only relevant in the circumstance that hrudey pointed out as we have discussed. There is the possibility that if you lose a relegation series you are treated as "demoted" the following season and you have some hit (difficult to quantify) to your earnings. However with 130k extra cash you will be able to build seats (650 bleachers or 186 lower tier) and that should compensate. Clearly winning both games would be ideal.

Look what happens with a 3rd game:
6th_ +177k in the first week, then +74k+87k-174k=-13k in the second week. Total +164k
5th_ +33k in the first week and +74k in the second week. total +107k

This is really simple math. People should be able to apply the relevant numbers to their own specific situations. As I said, if unlike the OP you risk demoting, you should just go for 5th.

yep

Who says you need to win? You just need to ensure you don't get a 3rd game, which, in the OP's case, should be extremely easy to control, be it losing both or winning both. He clearly stated from the beginning that teams in his league can't demote.

This presupposes that the loss of season ticket holders due to demotion is not assessed, which I don't know to be the case (or not to be the case). If it's treated as a team demoting, and then autopromoting due to bot promotion, the STH loss is not offset with a corresponding gain, and that'd be significantly detrimental to future revenues. I might have to actually check that next season if I can manage to lose enough games in IV, though I won't be going out of my way to do so. ;)

I understand that. If losing a relegation series without demoting is equivalent to "demoting" and "bot promoting" then you'll have 2 effects conflicting: the demotion and the bot promotion (it's a fair assumption that if one is taken into account, also the other is). The end result is difficult to quantify, but I agree that you probably lose some revenues the following season. However since you can also build seats (if you're not capped) or generate profits with the extra revenues that should absorb some of the potential losses.

Besides this should be only relevant to tanking teams or teams who decide to drop to the salary floor. If someone is able to "choose" where to finish (like the OP would be if he hadn't piled up so many victories so far) and decides to drop to 6th he should be able to win in 2 games in most circumstances: the OP potential opponent is only marginally better than a bot.

Last edited by Lemonshine at 10/7/2015 10:16:52 AM