BuzzerBeater Forums

Now I see why some other Belgian users were irked by you.

One says Morata has been Real's most efficient striker in the league, you understand (or characterise my opinion as):

Morata is a better striker

Yes, it's a waste of time to argue with people who dismiss stats (which include also goals that shouldn't have counted), ignore wins and awards, don't know what the offside rules are and who can't objectively assess a handball in the box. Seem like a bunch of homers completely devoid of common sense and knowledge of stats and rules, who prefer to go by their own alternative truths.

A handball in the box is penalised unless it's judged unintentional by the referee. Now, you either believe the ball didn't hit his arm or you do. If you do (and the downward trajectory of the ball would have been impossible if it only hit his chest or shoulder) there is nothing natural in Carvajal's movement that suggests he was not trying to stop the ball and he hit it with the hand accidentally. He was to stop the ball and he recalled the arm to do just that. In real time it looked like he was trying to stop the ball and it stopped it with the arm and from the slow-mo it also looks the same.

But yeah no point in pointing out the obvious any further.

Last edited by Lemonshine at 5/3/2017 10:53:16 AM

lol dude just stop embarrassing yourself.

The cross is directed at him, he's directly behind the defender who cleared the ball and most notably he even jumps for it. If that's not interfering with the action and trying to play the ball I don't know what is.

Ronaldo homers could be theoretically be correct if he didn't try to make a play for the ball (ie ignoring the action while trying to get back into a onside position), but he did.

batter then specialized people over the world

Yeah right, there is only some referees (very few) trying to justify their colleague. Their line is that Atkinson's 'opinion' was that Ronaldo didn't try to play the ball and therefore he ruled correctly he was in a passive offside position. Nobody in his right mind would think that a player in the middle of the box 5m away from the keeper and checked by 2 defenders who goes for the ball is not active on a play. Except Ronaldo homers. Even former Real Madrid players said it's offside and Atletico took the unusual step to appeal to UEFA for that goal. lol good luck with that, Atletico.

In the UK every single newspaper says it was offside and some renamed Ronaldo the 'Offside King'...man, you gotta admire the fact he only gets great nicknames...we might need to add this to his achievements

Last edited by Lemonshine at 5/3/2017 11:19:57 AM

It was offside because it was Ronaldo. Isn't it clear? :D :D Ronaldo scores goals from penalties, tap-ins and offsides. Every Barca fan know it like 10 God rules. :D :D And repeat it 5 times a day with head lied town to Camp nou :D

Who cares about Barcelona, everyone knows the Liga is quite boring, because it's like the Serie A before Calciopoli, except in the Liga there are 2 teams like Juventus used to be and the defenses are fairly weak and leaky (as opposed to the italian ones where everyone was hitting hard). The equivalent of the Spanish Liga would be dropping Houston, OKC, Brooklyn and the 76ers in the D-League: imagine the averages of Harden and Westbrook and the records of their teams. The debate is not about Barcelona vs Real Madrid which are equally despicable teams, but between Messi and Ronaldo.

One thing is clear anyway: Ronaldo doesn't know the rules enough. I knew that he did this because I saw it at the time, but I finally found it:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQfj9HHtkTE
Morata, his own teammate, was onside, Ronaldo (wrongly) didn't think so and gestured the linesman...

Last edited by Lemonshine at 5/3/2017 12:06:34 PM

he's always sure to be right

Always ready to read well nuanced arguments, with stats or examples or anything objective, to support them. You want to make a case for Ronaldo? Be my guest. However as evidenced in this thread, there is one fundamental problem with this approach if you are a Ronaldo supporter: Ronaldo is undoubtedly great, but Messi has won more both individually and team-wise.

Have you seen me debating with those who like Ronaldo more and say they would pick him ahead of Messi? Nope. You like one better, I like another better, that's ok, no problem with that. It's the people who state stuff out of their asses as if it's a divine truth, without backing it up in any way or using partial information. Edit: There is also people who use straw man arguments trying to discredit an alternative point of view...

Take you for example: did you explain how it's possible that someone changes direction and moves towards, moves his arm, hits the ball with his arm, but did so involuntarily? No, of course you didn't. Maybe you think his arm didn't hit the ball, did you explain how a shot directed to the goal hitting the chest or a shoulder of a defender can physically change direction vertically towards the ground if it didn't hit the arm? No, of course you didn't.

Oh don't worry for him, he's not embarrassing himself.

Oh I worry, I worry for everyone. He bashed someone for not knowing the rules. I posted the rules and I pointed out how it's very hard to claim that was a passive offside. Even Ronaldo knew this and actually tried to convince the referee he didn't do anything while he was offside, knowing that Atkinson might have tried to equalise the mistake in the second half.

However this is embarrassing because even if you think he was not offside, you cannot bash someone else for not knowing the rules when, if you knew the rules yourself, you'd realise that this was a completely subjective decision by the referee.

Look, we get it, you fellas can't explain how a ball travelling horizontally suddenly goes to the ground, can't explain how being between 2 defenders, moving towards the ball and jumping for it is not playing the ball. The UK press has no beef with either Ronaldo, Messi, Barcelona or Real Madrid and they all saw the episodes the same way.

All I've done in this thread is debunking the fundamentally false assertion that Ronaldo has scored more than Messi, that Ronaldo has won more than Messi, that Ronaldo scored 2 valid goals against Bayern and that Carvajal did not hit the ball with his hand voluntarily.

Also a suggestion to the guys from the balkans: if you want to use a game as proof of Ronaldo greatness, using as an example a game where he opened up the match with a goal which was controversial worldwide is probably not the best way. It's like using Maradona's hand goal to point out his greatness. It's just dumb, especially considering the second goal Maradona scored in that game or better games Ronaldo had this season without controversial goals...

Last edited by Lemonshine at 5/3/2017 1:36:29 PM

What?!?!?! Did you said...

There will be haters.

After this...?

Messi? I didn't saw him tonight, maybe tomorrow? I guess not..

I just saw pure magic in the UCL. There will be haters.

Really?

I mean that "I didn't saw him tonight..." might be the worst argument ever in football's discusions history. You did lost all your "credibility" by writting that.

Sry, its forbidden to notice to Barca fans that their club and Messi didn't play the UCL any more. My bad.

You have said it yourself, the arm has to move towards the ball, when clearly Carvajal's arm goes backwards. One of us is blinded.

Nah you misunderstand or went for the straw man again. In order to be accidental, a hand ball needs to be very close (not the case with Carvajal) and the arm needs to be in a natural position or motion. The moment Carvajal recalls the arm and hits the ball with it there is nothing natural about the action. Yes he was trying to hide his arm, but he couldn't and stopped the ball with it. Trying to make the play with the chest and trying to hide the arm do not cancel the handball and do not cancel the fact that he decided to move the arm there to stop the ball. If it was a matter of a handball being intentional beyond reasonable doubt, nobody would give penalties except against players blatantly stopping the ball with their hand.

It's you own interpretation, because how many games against good teams has Morata played this season? How many? How many goals Morata has scored since the start of his career?

This is a fair point but not a very strong one. You are implying that given more opportunities to start he would not score as much (which in the league is more than Ronaldo and this is a fact), but there is a key problem with that: there is no proof this would happen either. It's just pure speculation until you start him in those 'harder' games and see what happens. It's the same problem you have guys with saying that Westbrook teammates are rubbish. People say that mostly to make Westbrook look better, but you can't possibly know how much worse his team would look like with another NBA PG.

How many goals Morata has scored since the start of his career? He plays less that Ronaldo? So according you he should play more and then he will score more than Ronaldo.

There is only one fact in all of this and you won't be able to get around it. Morata has scored more goal per minute than Ronaldo has in the Liga this season. Maybe it's a fluke, but maybe not. Also Morata is 24 while Ronaldo is 32, so comparing the 2 the way you're asking, it's like asking to compare Anthony Davis to LeBron.

Morata was good enough to start for Juventus in Italy, where he won more titles than Ronaldo managed in Spain so far. Real Madrid demanded him back and paid 1.5x to Juventus more than Juventus paid for him and with the money they bought Higuain. His former teammates (plus Higuain) just finished brushing aside the famed Monaco offense without taking any goal.

By the way, just comparing Morata to Ronaldo is the proof your knowledge about football is very limited.

Yes yes, my knowledge is limited because I state a verifiable fact (Morata has a higher scoring average) and you are Grady Fuson.

Why do you think there are so many debates about Messi and Ronaldo?

There are because of Ronaldo's fans. The casual person just looking at the success, both individual and team-wide would not understand what the fuss is about since one is superior in almost everything. It's pretty much like comparing Jordan and Kobe. The only area where Ronaldo beats Messi is with the national team, but unfortunately for him that achievement will always be slightly tainted, as his 'rubbish teammates who always drag him down' managed just fine without him and took the trophy home. Messi is an Olympic champion although that isn't comparable to a Euro championship.