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National Team Debate Thread (thread closed)

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224157.76 in reply to 224157.75
Date: 8/24/2012 9:16:53 AM
Overall Posts Rated:
178178
I'd like the last 5 minutes of life back after having to read all of this 3 am drivel from last night.

Can we please focus on the election?

This Post:
11
224157.77 in reply to 224157.76
Date: 8/24/2012 9:49:10 AM
Overall Posts Rated:
504504
Yeah......good luck with that. Hahaha

From: wozzvt

This Post:
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224157.78 in reply to 224157.75
Date: 8/24/2012 9:56:23 AM
Overall Posts Rated:
228228
We think we know how it works, we look at our roster and suspect we don't have the right sort of personnel based on our interpretation of how 2-3 works, and when we run some tests scrimmages we get poor results. Why is that at all discouraging? It would be more confusing if it DID work for us somehow.

You're not wrong, but here's the dilemma... we *think* we know what types of players would make it work, but we don't know for sure. So we'd be encouraging someone (more like, someoneS) to spend 6-7 seasons training a very particular, very expensive type of player, at which point we might realize "oops, we were wrong, it still doesn't work very well". That's a huge thing to ask of the community, with very, very high risk. If people were interested in trying this on their own, with the understanding that it might fail miserably, then that'd be great, but personally, I'd be uncomfortable asking it of anyone. (It's similar to the Logsdon issue... sure, it might be great to have a player like that, but the costs in terms of training time and salary as so extreme that it's not really fair to encourage someone to make a player like that, since we know they're only going to be a marginal NT guy anyway).

As far as the balance between open vs. contested shots, that's a great point and always a huge consideration, and I understand that in general giving up flow to your opponent usually results in giving up more uncontested shots. Intuitively though shouldn't a 2-3 zone that packs everybody inside the arc contest more of everything except 3pter's? With somebody always around the ball, and the OD and SB nuances suggested by your data, wouldn't we actually expect more contested shots (including jumpers)?

You would think, but that's not how it's implemented. As I've heard it explained, OD defends passes, ID defends "post-ups". So in determining whether a pass leads to an open shot (i.e., an assist), it's a PA vs OD evaluation. 2-3 reduces team OD, and ergo causes these passes to more often lead to open shots.

I think the risk side of the risk/reward equation is why people are gun-shy about committing to training something that hasn't been proven yet (since it could embarrassingly fail), but really what is the risk: that we don't win worlds? I think we're already starting to understand that we even with good coaching, GS, community involvement, and training we still aren't a big enough community to use traditional approaches to just steamroll through some of our larger, better organized foreign competition, so I'm not sure we would really be risking all that much by taking some calculated risks based on good data and analysis.

The risk is really to the club team. You give up a lot in terms of training opportunity, and then pay a lot in terms of salary. It's a big personal sacrifice that may or may not produce something positive for the NT.

Also, I should say, I don't think community size is necessarily the reason we've had trouble at worlds. In fact, if you look at the largest user bases in BB, of the top 5 (italy, spain, poland, us, france), only poland has managed to be successful at the NT level. I think part of the problem is similar to the "micronation" issue that has come up-- having a really competitive club league is in many ways counter-productive to having a good NT. (I.e., since all our "rich" teams have such a thin margin for error, it's very hard to make the sorts of sacrifices that would benefit the NT: owning multiple high salaried NT players, training them out of position, etc). Poland has been the exception here, for which they deserve a lot of praise, but they're the exception more than the rule. The other teams that have done the best lately are the countries that have enough teams to generate a big enough based of high quality trainees, but not so big that the top divisions are uber competitive (China, Czeck Republic, Turkey, Slovenia, Chile, etc).

This Post:
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224157.79 in reply to 224157.78
Date: 8/24/2012 10:04:17 AM
Overall Posts Rated:
32293229
You would think, but that's not how it's implemented. As I've heard it explained, OD defends passes, ID defends "post-ups". So in determining whether a pass leads to an open shot (i.e., an assist), it's a PA vs OD evaluation. 2-3 reduces team OD, and ergo causes these passes to more often lead to open shots.


I'm going to pretend I know the answer and am asking this just for everyone's benefit because the wolves and mafia are already licking their chops over getting me, but when you say that OD defends passes, is that only one-way (i.e., the OD of the guy defending the passer or the OD of the guy defending the pass receiver), two-way (OD check vs. passer and receiver) or is it just passing vs. team OD?

Not that I expect there to be much practical purpose in the question, as the odds of finding anyone building 18+OD/ID/SB type big men are about as low as can be differentiated from zero, but it would certainly be an interesting direction to go with the 2-3.

This Post:
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224157.80 in reply to 224157.79
Date: 8/24/2012 10:14:58 AM
Overall Posts Rated:
228228
I don't know. I doubt that's it's evaluating team OD, but the tactic certainly modifies each player's "effective" OD (so a player with 10 OD will play like someone with ~11.5-12 OD if you use a 3-2, and like 8-8.5 OD in a 2-3). But what the exact check is, I'm not sure. I've assumed the passer's PA and the OD of the guy defending the pass's recipient are involved, and it wouldn't surprise me if the OD of the guy defending the passER is also involved, but I'd be guessing.

Last edited by wozzvt at 8/24/2012 10:16:41 AM

This Post:
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224157.83 in reply to 224157.76
Date: 8/24/2012 2:01:53 PM
Overall Posts Rated:
142142
I'd like the last 5 minutes of life back after having to read all of this 3 am drivel from last night.

Can we please focus on the election?

Haha, my thoughts exactly. Here's jfarb reading one of southpaws post. http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lkunfaTc7z1qi553yo1_500...

Last edited by Jack Stevens at 8/24/2012 2:03:54 PM

This Post:
33
224157.84 in reply to 224157.83
Date: 8/24/2012 2:52:37 PM
Arizona Desert Storm
III.1
Overall Posts Rated:
11251125
I'd like the last 5 minutes of life back after having to read all of this 3 am drivel from last night.

Can we please focus on the election?

Haha, my thoughts exactly. Here's jfarb reading one of southpaws post. (http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lkunfaTc7z1qi553yo1_500...)


I didn't know Jfarb is Bill Cosby! That's awesome Dr. Huxtable plays BB, I had no idea!

This Post:
00
224157.85 in reply to 224157.1
Date: 8/24/2012 3:47:40 PM
Overall Posts Rated:
3434
U21 team going 4 3 in a row this season. im excited. and back to topic

This Post:
55
224157.86 in reply to 224157.85
Date: 8/24/2012 6:21:17 PM
Overall Posts Rated:
122122
I have to agree with what southpaw says. I just want to add on to what he said though.

The offsite community was not welcoming for me. I tried to run for NT and U21 manager. Simply because I was not in a top division they wrote me off, but wanted me to be a part of the offsite community. Then they said that I never helped, even though I have a post asking to be a domestic scout, however they did not respond to this and I did not become a domestic scout. Basically what I am saying is, if you contradict what they think is right you will be eaten up by the offsite "community".
At least the NT has been having managers in the top divisions for who knows how long. How far has the gotten us in the world? Don't say we have had success in the Americas please. Think about it, we are a top 3 if not the top country with people playing buzzerbeater. We have not done much in the world and we are not a threat in the world championships. Yet we have the same people and types of people being the manager over and over again. WHERE HAS THAT GOTTEN US?

I also have some personal beef with just about everyone on the offsite. I want to say some things that I can't. I feel like I was never accepted into the community and that is why I stopped posting there. Again I think it is because of the division I am in. If I am such a bad coach, how come I have one of the top 20 year olds? I am deciding if I should make his game shape respectable weekly so you can't use him.



When will you get it through your thick skull that we need new NT managers? Most of the players that are potiential NT players come from DIV and DV. I have basically given up on the NT and U21 team because of how corrupt they are.

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