BuzzerBeater Forums

he's always sure to be right

Always ready to read well nuanced arguments, with stats or examples or anything objective, to support them. You want to make a case for Ronaldo? Be my guest. However as evidenced in this thread, there is one fundamental problem with this approach if you are a Ronaldo supporter: Ronaldo is undoubtedly great, but Messi has won more both individually and team-wise.

Have you seen me debating with those who like Ronaldo more and say they would pick him ahead of Messi? Nope. You like one better, I like another better, that's ok, no problem with that. It's the people who state stuff out of their asses as if it's a divine truth, without backing it up in any way or using partial information. Edit: There is also people who use straw man arguments trying to discredit an alternative point of view...

Take you for example: did you explain how it's possible that someone changes direction and moves towards, moves his arm, hits the ball with his arm, but did so involuntarily? No, of course you didn't. Maybe you think his arm didn't hit the ball, did you explain how a shot directed to the goal hitting the chest or a shoulder of a defender can physically change direction vertically towards the ground if it didn't hit the arm? No, of course you didn't.

Oh don't worry for him, he's not embarrassing himself.

Oh I worry, I worry for everyone. He bashed someone for not knowing the rules. I posted the rules and I pointed out how it's very hard to claim that was a passive offside. Even Ronaldo knew this and actually tried to convince the referee he didn't do anything while he was offside, knowing that Atkinson might have tried to equalise the mistake in the second half.

However this is embarrassing because even if you think he was not offside, you cannot bash someone else for not knowing the rules when, if you knew the rules yourself, you'd realise that this was a completely subjective decision by the referee.

Look, we get it, you fellas can't explain how a ball travelling horizontally suddenly goes to the ground, can't explain how being between 2 defenders, moving towards the ball and jumping for it is not playing the ball. The UK press has no beef with either Ronaldo, Messi, Barcelona or Real Madrid and they all saw the episodes the same way.

All I've done in this thread is debunking the fundamentally false assertion that Ronaldo has scored more than Messi, that Ronaldo has won more than Messi, that Ronaldo scored 2 valid goals against Bayern and that Carvajal did not hit the ball with his hand voluntarily.

Also a suggestion to the guys from the balkans: if you want to use a game as proof of Ronaldo greatness, using as an example a game where he opened up the match with a goal which was controversial worldwide is probably not the best way. It's like using Maradona's hand goal to point out his greatness. It's just dumb, especially considering the second goal Maradona scored in that game or better games Ronaldo had this season without controversial goals...

Last edited by Lemonshine at 5/3/2017 1:36:29 PM

What?!?!?! Did you said...

There will be haters.

After this...?

Messi? I didn't saw him tonight, maybe tomorrow? I guess not..

I just saw pure magic in the UCL. There will be haters.

Really?

I mean that "I didn't saw him tonight..." might be the worst argument ever in football's discusions history. You did lost all your "credibility" by writting that.

Sry, its forbidden to notice to Barca fans that their club and Messi didn't play the UCL any more. My bad.

You have said it yourself, the arm has to move towards the ball, when clearly Carvajal's arm goes backwards. One of us is blinded.

Nah you misunderstand or went for the straw man again. In order to be accidental, a hand ball needs to be very close (not the case with Carvajal) and the arm needs to be in a natural position or motion. The moment Carvajal recalls the arm and hits the ball with it there is nothing natural about the action. Yes he was trying to hide his arm, but he couldn't and stopped the ball with it. Trying to make the play with the chest and trying to hide the arm do not cancel the handball and do not cancel the fact that he decided to move the arm there to stop the ball. If it was a matter of a handball being intentional beyond reasonable doubt, nobody would give penalties except against players blatantly stopping the ball with their hand.

It's you own interpretation, because how many games against good teams has Morata played this season? How many? How many goals Morata has scored since the start of his career?

This is a fair point but not a very strong one. You are implying that given more opportunities to start he would not score as much (which in the league is more than Ronaldo and this is a fact), but there is a key problem with that: there is no proof this would happen either. It's just pure speculation until you start him in those 'harder' games and see what happens. It's the same problem you have guys with saying that Westbrook teammates are rubbish. People say that mostly to make Westbrook look better, but you can't possibly know how much worse his team would look like with another NBA PG.

How many goals Morata has scored since the start of his career? He plays less that Ronaldo? So according you he should play more and then he will score more than Ronaldo.

There is only one fact in all of this and you won't be able to get around it. Morata has scored more goal per minute than Ronaldo has in the Liga this season. Maybe it's a fluke, but maybe not. Also Morata is 24 while Ronaldo is 32, so comparing the 2 the way you're asking, it's like asking to compare Anthony Davis to LeBron.

Morata was good enough to start for Juventus in Italy, where he won more titles than Ronaldo managed in Spain so far. Real Madrid demanded him back and paid 1.5x to Juventus more than Juventus paid for him and with the money they bought Higuain. His former teammates (plus Higuain) just finished brushing aside the famed Monaco offense without taking any goal.

By the way, just comparing Morata to Ronaldo is the proof your knowledge about football is very limited.

Yes yes, my knowledge is limited because I state a verifiable fact (Morata has a higher scoring average) and you are Grady Fuson.

Why do you think there are so many debates about Messi and Ronaldo?

There are because of Ronaldo's fans. The casual person just looking at the success, both individual and team-wide would not understand what the fuss is about since one is superior in almost everything. It's pretty much like comparing Jordan and Kobe. The only area where Ronaldo beats Messi is with the national team, but unfortunately for him that achievement will always be slightly tainted, as his 'rubbish teammates who always drag him down' managed just fine without him and took the trophy home. Messi is an Olympic champion although that isn't comparable to a Euro championship.

So here are the arguments in favour of Ronaldo:
1) Using facts and cumulative stats and awards (mostly by a bunch of french journalists') is partial
2) You need to use things perceived when evaluating, not facts. In particular, things 'which can't be measured (ex. charisma)'
3) You should account for 'winning goals' and 'points earned per goal or assist' . Amidst that rant, there was a decent idea, but I guarantee you that Ronaldo will look even worse than Messi like this, since he is very streaky (this would devalue a lot of second and third goals he's had: example, you'd count 1 valuable goal instead of 3 for the match against Atletico).
4) Purely talent-wise we have seen higher peaks in the last 20ish years.. Yikes. Give us the names, mate. Lapadula? Balotelli? Oh yes, Ronaldo (Luiz Nazario da Lima), Ronaldinho, Baggio or Zidane? Sorry, I've seen them all playing too and I'm sorry but no, there are no players except Maradona that you should take over these 2 in the last 40 years, including Cruyff, Beckenbauer and Platini.

And yes, as you can see from the time of this post that I'm awake: I'm watching LeBron carrying yet more guys to the ECF. Westbrook's supporters would say he's carrying another lottery team to the Finals. You wouldn't know it, but most people think I'm also a LeBron hater, when in reality I'm more simply a LeBron fanboys' hater. A bit like it goes for Ronaldo and his weird fans...

Last edited by Lemonshine at 5/3/2017 8:59:42 PM