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48 vs 48+

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This Post:
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124192.84 in reply to 124192.76
Date: 4/10/2012 10:45:31 AM
Overall Posts Rated:
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Yes, there are many times when realism must be sacrificed. But it isn't a necessity to have it in particular areas or particular ways, as there are other games that don't.


Right, it's something that's got to be looked at individually, which is why the blanket statement that something "isn't realistic" is usually the foundation of an argument that is rather poor in merit in terms of game design.

In BB, having essentially "unlocked" training for 3 players per team without regard to when/where/if they played sounds nice, and certainly more "realistic." But it would be an unmitigated disaster. Top teams would benefit because they could not only focus more fully on their competitions but would also gain the ability to create the unique type of players that they could make great use of without any of the sacrifices involved. Likewise, because training players would become so easy, people would be a lot less likely to train players with lower but serviceable potential because they're useful to the team, and instead fill that spot with another veteran and just focus on higher potential players. Before too long, there would be a market flooded with highly trained, high potential players, but nobody to buy them.

For game design purposes, it makes perfect sense to require players to be trained in their position to gain skill in it, just like a player gaining skills in a job class in an RPG.

This Post:
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124192.85 in reply to 124192.80
Date: 4/10/2012 11:11:40 AM
Jokehim Maniacs
SBBL
Overall Posts Rated:
188188
Second Team:
Jokehim Maniacs II
There is a poor alternative basketball simulator game as well: http://www.bballzone.net/. Interesting idea with only trading and signing of free agents but I gave it up seasons ago. There are other basketball manager games as well but from my experience is the rating of the manager games obvious:
1) Buzzerbeater
2) Charazay
3) Basketsim

Buzzerbeater is outstanding in my opinion among these games and also in comparison with other manager games I tried (and they are plenty).

From: Jokehim

This Post:
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124192.86 in reply to 124192.85
Date: 4/10/2012 11:34:04 AM
Jokehim Maniacs
SBBL
Overall Posts Rated:
188188
Second Team:
Jokehim Maniacs II
I agree that there are weaknesses in this game as well. I would very much like to have a game where you can chose your best players in basically all games. One improvement might be to have a fatigue parameter. Something similar exists in Charazay but not sure how well it works. Having a performance loss of % depending on fatigue might be a more reasonable way of handling the fatigue problem. Playing a player with fatigue would then increase injury risk and also force more drastical efforts to get it down again. Playing more than 70 minutes a week could be a way to have a fatigue on player that could be kept on a stable level and playing less fatigue could be no problem at all. As today playing too little could instead set down the game shape. A combination of low fatigue and high game shape would be the optimal and it would require 60-70 minutes just like today.

The training aspect is a more complicated issue but improving the role of the experience for younger players could both be related to a better training efficiency and a better possibility to perform to full capacity while young. However, exactly how it could work is something i have not figured out and I doubt that it would be better than training today. I agree that this randomness in reaching 48 minutes and full training is very annoying and would be greatful if a better solution was implemented.

This Post:
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124192.87 in reply to 124192.84
Date: 4/10/2012 9:22:15 PM
Overall Posts Rated:
299299
Yeah, you give the same argument, to which I give the same response. Those points you made about it being too easy etc and it throwing out the economy are valid, but only if a simple change was made. If it was thought through, taking the possible disadvantages into account, these problems could be countered.

From: f3nr1s

This Post:
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124192.88 in reply to 124192.87
Date: 4/12/2012 4:03:28 AM
Overall Posts Rated:
2828
hmm, let's, for the sake of the argument, suppose that a model where the training is mostly based on the quality of the trainer instead of played minutes is introduced.. in the long run, this means that with adequate funding and good trainers you could develop a player in a PG with world-class skills without him even playing one minute at that position. yeah, that is a pretty extreme example, but it disproves the "realism" idea..

the good thing about the current model is that it makes you think as a coach who has some good prospects in his team and knows that they won't develop if they are not given playing time, irregardless of the amount of time spent practising in the gym by themselves.. also, it creates more of a balance between very good teams and new ones, which makes this game work.. if you are a good team, you will probably have more strong games per week and therefore won't be able to field all the players you wanted for the required amount of time.. however, you can compensate that by having a world-class trainer and still manage to train some good prospects.. if you don't have the money to afford a world-class trainer, you can still train players by making them play enough minutes, as you'll have less strong games per week.. your proposed model would definitely bias this whole thing towards the richer teams.

From: Axis123

This Post:
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124192.89 in reply to 124192.88
Date: 4/12/2012 6:11:13 PM
Overall Posts Rated:
299299
Who says it has to be done that way? There are loads of different ways it could be done, with varying advantages to different managers. I don't think Kobehas ever played C but he has analysed what Cs do and taken parts of their game into his. To deny this opportunity is silly.

From: Tangosz

This Post:
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124192.90 in reply to 124192.89
Date: 4/12/2012 7:25:27 PM
Overall Posts Rated:
573573
Well, why don't you avail yourself of the suggestion thread, so that we don't waste this opportunity. Then we can all comment on whether your proposed more realistic training design is balanced or not.

Personally, I love the training system in BB, as annoying and unrealistic as it is. Why? Because it's excruciating coming up with a strategy that can balance winning league games, winning cup games, and training players. And that pain of trying to devise a good strategy makes following its outcome incredibly compelling. I mean we all here probably love checking BB on Fridays, to see if out little guys got any pops. I also really like that the BB training system forces people to interact via the transfer list. It's pretty hard to train all of your own players, so people are forced to fill some of their team needs with the products of other peoples' training.

I've played many sports manager games that have a more broad training method, and frankly, they are all pretty damn boring. Sure, it's nice when my players get better, and more of them get better every training update, but it's very much a "ho hum, yay whatever" event. For me it doesn't in any way reach the feeling of having a BB player pop unexpected.

From: Axis123

This Post:
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124192.91 in reply to 124192.90
Date: 4/12/2012 9:20:30 PM
Overall Posts Rated:
299299
I love the pops too.

I look forward to them in each of the sport simulation games I play.

This Post:
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124192.92 in reply to 124192.90
Date: 4/13/2012 4:12:44 AM
Headless Thompson Gunners
Naismith
Overall Posts Rated:
716716
Second Team:
Canada Purple Haze BC
yes
what you said