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so manon a 10/17/14/10 big man would do better than a 14/15/13/11 big man eh? I don't think think so. points my friend. thats the only stat that BB counts, yeah defense is good but do people really want a BIG gap from it? I personelly hate when skillls are BIG gaped. I'd go for more balanced than D.

Big difference: the "pioneers" in this case are doing stuff that's been already done with mixed results.
Now, I know that everyone thinks of themselves as blazing trails, but the next time I hear that all you need to make 2-3 work is SB at C and OD at PF, my head is going to explode.

And it very well might not work. But the whole argument that it can't be done because nobody's doing it and it's always been done this way is simply the lazy way out. Obviously, people can build a team that's capable of winning with LI, and that's fine for them. But that doesn't mean that everyone should accept it as an article of faith that there's simply nothing that can be done but to follow the LI/M2M drumbeat.

I think my problem with the discussion is not so much the contention that LI/M2M is the most effective method right now - because given the builds of the players out there the results clearly indicate that it works. My problem isn't even with the people who say other things are "unproven" - because, naturally, they are. But what I don't accept is the dogma that nothing else CAN work - there's certainly insufficient evidence to make a sweeping proclamation like that, yet anyone who suggests that they may be interested in doing that themselves is told "you just need more experience" and pointed to the fact that everyone is doing LI/M2M now as if anything other than jumping to the back of the line is foolhardy.

so manon a 10/17/14/10 big man would do better than a 14/15/13/11 big man eh? I don't think think so. points my friend. thats the only stat that BB counts, yeah defense is good but do people really want a BIG gap from it? I personelly hate when skillls are BIG gaped. I'd go for more balanced than D.

So what you're saying is a guy with 51 skill points in inside skills isn't going to do as well as one with 53? That's revolutionary!

Everyone isn't using LI and MtM.

This is not a game where 99% of the users are using LI MtM

This is a game where 99% of the WINNING TEAMS are using LI MtM

People ARE TRYING OTHER THINGS....they are NOT working.

Just for giggles, I did a TL search for wondrous (14) for every skill other than stamina. There were just over 100 guys with wondrous passing and every other skill besides SB was 100+ (of course, over 1000 in JS and quite a few for the other inside skills).

There were 7 with wondrous SB, and only one of those had above mediocre OD (respectable).

Now, of course, I don't follow the high level teams or BBB or all that nonsense, so maybe these other people who have built the type of big men with ID/RB/SB and decent outside skills at the expense of IS are all being kept by their teams. I mean, if people have been trying other things enough to drive a sensible man like you to capitalize it, surely they've actually gone so far as to purpose-build players for these strategies. If we look at the LI/M2M, people are using players who are built specifically for this tactic (though as you've pointed out correctly in the past, even guys not built for LI can be effective at it).

I guess if people can just point me to the people who have built multiple guys who have ID and SB at roughly the level of the IS they're facing, plus OD at something around 10, and failed with their 2-3, I can at least see if I can pick up any information from their experiences. If we're talking people taking the typical low SB LI big men and throwing them in a 2-3 zone, though, there's plenty of data on the uselessness of that (unless you're just going for the RB boost because you can't stop them anyhow). ;)